which guns rock which guns suck

[pluckyew]

which guns rock which guns suck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

don't be a "sponge" and belive everything you read..esp. on the internet, but..

this is intresting:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/133585.php


Everybody Was Lying All The Time...
November 15, 2005
Iraq Gun Porn: Which Guns Suck, Which Guns Rock
UPDATE: Welcome minions of Drew Curtis!

Which commonly used weapons in Iraq do our brave soldiers give the thumbs up to and which do they thumb their nose at? Here is a review.

Even though I've been pretty much out of The Jawa Report loop for the past month or so, I do get a ton of e-mails daily. From time to time I get an e-mail worthy of sharing with you. This is one. It was forwarded by a reader in the Navy, Mike, who in turn got it from a friend of his in the Marines. You may have seen it making the rounds already. The review of the weapons are one recently returned Marine's opinion [name removed to protect his identity] and does not necessarily mean a consensus has formed. If you scroll to the end you'll also see an assessment of our enemiy's capability as well as those of our allies.

As the son and grandson of two very fine Marines, let me wish all those fighting in Iraq all the best and God speed in a final victory over the enemies of the United States of America.

------

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum
powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. [The Marine] says you feel
filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is
more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems
also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and
weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the
weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm
(.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over
there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.
Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate
use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine
gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic
jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly.
(that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert
environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for
self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys
hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing
houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun,
developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!).
Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.
Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being
dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the
structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still
worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts
their ****s in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The ..45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there.
Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso
hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK
military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are
being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a
modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight
Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the
sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round. [check out Sage stocks...pluckyew]

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and
accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle
suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in 308 but some in 300 win mag.
Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used
heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour
in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hath****'s record for
confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and
can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an
AK-47 round. The bad Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the
summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for
head shots when ever possible. All the bull**** about the "old" body armor
making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED
explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in
most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular
performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little
enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at
night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are
Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations.
[The Marine] carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance
are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and
Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the
desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed
light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly
shoots like ****. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they
are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran,
again)

Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple,
reliable and as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored
humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still
killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet
anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in [The Marine's]
area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery
shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the
explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank.
Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately,
they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iran ian) specifically
designed to penetrate armor.

Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with
an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of [The Marine's] NCO's lost a leg
to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". [The Marine's] base
was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often
at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a
psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump
out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul *** in a matter of
seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell
and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS
units for navigation and "Google earth" for overhead views of our positions.
Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent.

Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is
rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units
and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate
mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly
"foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world
(and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge
and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the "rat line"
which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been
hitting hard for the last few months.

Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide
bombers or in "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core terrorists
from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the
guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The
Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and
the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). In the
Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and
led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating
the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. The have had a
massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early
80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long
ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every
time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common
earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man
teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Ak's and RPG's
directly at our bases just to probe the defenses.

They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above).
[The Marine's] base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to
flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious
last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often
than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's
Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science.
The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever incr easing toll
on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and
AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire,
especially at night.

Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.

Fun fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber ****.

The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that if
captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly
offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This
motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a **** about the
war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common
criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the
death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a ****.
Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are
getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers,
en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake.
Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the
police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians.

The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to [The Marine], morale among our guys is very high. They not only
believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are
stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they
almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised
and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see **** like "Are we losing in Iraq" on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership.

Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there
to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).

That's it, hope you found it interesting, I sure did.

Posted by Dr. Rusty Shackleford at November 15, 2005 09:52 AM | TrackBack
__________________

[chepdog]

Very true about the M-16 and M4 Carbine, although if you know your weapon like I do there is a simple fix on these type of assault machine guns that makes them very reliable, and yes the 3 round burst from the M-16 does not kill the skinnies lots of times, you have to point and shoot chest up to make good contact (head shot) the M4 Carbine with the ACOG 4x32 scope is very accurate, now there is different types of ammo. you can use for these two highly used machine guns, one of them thats one of my personal favorites enters the body or object and explodes inside with tiny like bb's that are very hot in temp. and cause massive pain and damage of course. The M240 (wow) is the best all around assault machine gun there is along with the heavier M-60, you can feed several belts using burts till the nozzle gets too hot, the AK47 is a best bang for the buck where you can buy them, they can penetrate through body armor and have the bigger 7.62 bullet, only if you're a trained or an expert shot can you manage to shoot your foe from a distance, you can mount a scope on these too but the recoil is to great, you might lose an eye while trying to see through the scope and shooting at the same time. Just my $.02 ...... I love talking about weapons.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Originally Posted by pluckyew

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon).

errr, that's Squad Automatic Weapon.

[bestatchess]

Originally Posted by Sammy Sandbag

errr, that's Squad Automatic Weapon.

impressive, as usual

[pluckyew]

Originally Posted by bestatchess

impressive, as usual

SAW is Squad Automatic Weapon

[Sammy Sandbag]

Originally Posted by pluckyew

SAW is Squad Automatic Weapon

One more time for good luck; SAW is Squad Automatic Weapon.....

Good read, although I had seen it a while ago on a military blog.

[ensclark]

hey, LT, is that right, SAW is Squad Automatic Weapon.
Just checkin.

[Johnny Nitro]

Originally Posted by pluckyew

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert
environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for
self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys
hit multiple times and still in the fight.

<SNIP>

7) The ..45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there.
Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso
hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK
military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are
being re-issued en masse.

Hmmmmmm. Sidearms -- like the M9 Beretta -- are weapons of LAST resort.

The "old government model .45's" were and are crap compared to the M9. They were manufactured to extremely loose tolerances and rattle like a box of marbles. I've watched many a weapons qualification aboard ship where the shooter was lucky to keep seven rounds in a human torso target at seven yards. But they meet the requirement of a weapon of last resort.

"Special Ops" .45 handguns are heavily modified weapons intended to be used for OFFENSIVE operations. If you're comparing this to the M9, you're comparing apples and oranges.

[PHOEBISIS]

Why would the Shia Arabs attack the USA?I didn't think there was any Shia on USA fighting since Al Sadr finally figured out which side his bread was buttered on.The majority of the casualities are from Sunni Arabs blowing up Shia Mosques-marketplaces-police and army recruiting stations.The Shia militias certainly have "infiltrated" the government-heck the Shia Arabs run-are the government.
They are finally waging a low level war againsts the Sunni Arabs-Al Quaida(they are the ones controlling those prisons that made the news-starving prisoners etc-typical civil war type stuff-nasty-Andersonville etc).
The Shia Arabs hate us of course, but they don't want us to leave just yet;they want us to fully train-arm them,and kill down the Sunnis first.Thanks,Charlie
chepdog-what is your secret-jamproof M-16??

[Johnny Nitro]

Originally Posted by chepdog

the AK47 is a best bang for the buck where you can buy them, they can penetrate through body armor and have the bigger 7.62 bullet, only if you're a trained or an expert shot can you manage to shoot your foe from a distance, you can mount a scope on these too but the recoil is to great, you might lose an eye while trying to see through the scope and shooting at the same time.

How old are you and who told you that load of crap?

The 7.62x39mm is "too powerful" for scope mounting???!!!!! The sheer absurdity in that statement absolutely astounds me!!!!!! Particularly when you consider other MORE powerful military and civilian rounds -- like the 7.62 NATO, the round in which the M14 and M24 are chambered -- are scoped and in a light weapons platform. And no one loses their eyes.

And AK47s aren't exactly capable of pinpoint accuracy either. A so-called "trained or expert shot" can only wring out so much accuracy. (And what exactly is your definition of such an individual?)

[tnbowhunter]

Hehe, I didn't know that this topic was just for military arms.

I personally stay away from just about anything semi automatic. I'll take accuracy over fire power any ole day of the week. That's why most of my rifles are Remington Mdl. 700's, or single shots.

You guys take the AK's, SKS's, M16, M14, etc. Then give me my Remington 270, or 7MM Mag, with a 3.5X10 Leupold scope and five minutes head start and see who has the advantage. "One on one of course."



Speaking of penetration, I have a couple of hundred rounds of 30-06 Armor piercing shells with 1940's headstamps that will shoot right through an engine block and out the other side.

[PHOEBISIS]

The AK47s main virtue is that they are cheap to produce and are reasonably reliable-that is it(but that is enough).The same loose tolerances that allow it to shoot with a fair amount of gunk in it also mean that it will wear out a bit quicker from the bolt slamming back quicker,and from the grit that inevitably finds its way in there sanding it down over time.To get it to reliably slam the bolt while grunged up you have to have quite a bit more gas pushing the bolt back than would be needed when it is clean and lightly lubed.I suspect that if you opened up the tolerances on a M-16 you could get wear problems in the aluminum receiver(especially in the sandy environment).
The AKs wear out just like anything else,They are also heavy-8.5 lbs unloaded.I would guess an average one would shoot 5-6" groups at 100 yards-the averageM-16 probably can do1.5- 3".The current M16 is close to 8 lbs unloaded,but they were originally barely more than 6 lbs.
The heavier 7.62X39 probably will penetrate masonry a little better than the 223,but that is the trade off for being able to carry more ammunition and having a much more compact 30rd mag.If they are on the ground, then the sights are unusable on an AK-you have to turn it sideways(maybe that is why they always show their soldiers standing straight up and down in the open shooting down a street in the videos they make),Oh well.Charlie

[chepdog]

"Johnny Nitro" i dont have time to talk to someone who doesnt have the knowledge of weapons as yourself, if you knew your weapons you would know what im talking about (Also i never mentioned the M14 or the M24)please refrain from saying anything else that would make me think you dont know what you're talking about, im old enough and as personal experience I know what im saying. Good day.

[Johnny Nitro]

Originally Posted by chepdog

"Johnny Nitro" i dont have time to talk to someone who doesnt have the knowledge of weapons as yourself, if you knew your weapons you would know what im talking about (Also i never mentioned the M14 or the M24)please refrain from saying anything else that would make me think you dont know what you're talking about, im old enough and as personal experience I know what im saying. Good day.

My knowledge of weapons is far in excess of yours, hence my calling your statement and experience into question. That was the objective of my post.

Your stated in your post in regards to the AK47 family of weapons that "...you can mount a scope on these too but the recoil is to [SIC] great, you might lose an eye while trying to see through the scope and shooting at the same time." Did you not?

A typical military loading of the 7.62x39mm features a 123-grain projectile traveling at approximately 2400 feet/second, yet you believe that the recoil generated by this is far too great to handle scope mounting.

A typical military loading of the 7.62 NATO (civilian name .308 WInchester) features a 150-grain projectile traveling at 2800 feet/second or so, yet there isn't any problem mounting a scope, particularly in the M14 and M24 platforms.

All of this works out to generated recoil of approximately 6 FT-LBS for a 7.62x39mm fired from a 9-pound weapon versus 15-FT-LBS for a 7.62 NATO fired from a weapon of the same weight. So again, where is this "great" amount of recoil being generated on the part of the 7.62x39mm?

Exactly how ignorant do you believe everyone to be?

We could get into a debate about the physics of recoil generated and Newton's Third Law, but you've already indicated that the discussion might be a little DEEP for you.

And you never answered my questions: exactly how old are you and who told you that load of crap?

[chepdog]

Try shooting that AK-47 at full auto with your eye close to the scope and see what happens im sure those 6 lbs of recoil will get you , ive seen things you havent seen, im sure of that. Being in the service for 10 years fully active in the Special forces (the sand box will teach you alot of things son) ( pee on private whatever you want to be called at this point/ tree hugger maybe) ," No deer hunting games here/just waiting for the right moment to strike, i search and destroy, where it was/is real.. It seems to me that you have made quite an entrance on this forum, like if you know it all, ****y attitudes dont go with me so please keep your tree hugging attitude to yourself. Take a hunting trip and kill as many bucks or doe's as you want since it seems like you do alot of backyard hunting, leave the real hunting for the real men. Hooorahhhhhhhhhh.