We can '"win it" -- like we did after WWII in: Germany...

pluckyew · 01-28-2005, 09:29 AM

We're in it, let's win it."
"...[ Jeff Coopper ] recall[s] the case of the Shoshone war band which showed up complete with one 30-30 rifle per man the week after Pearl Harbor, and simply wanted to have the enemy pointed out to them. "We hear there's a war going on and we want to go fight it." [This] War is a bad thing, but it should not be regarded as the worst of all evils. Like war, death is to be avoided, but not at the cost of dignity. The American military tradition is a gallant one and should be explained to the young at the mother's knee. As it was said in World War II, "We're in it, let's win it."..." from..Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Vol. 13, No. 1 January 2005
.

I am a Democrat, but please to you all Democrats, such as Rep. Woosley, that insists on pulling out our troops, pre-maturely, from Iraq:

"We're in it, [stay in there,] let's win it!"

We may have gotten in there as result of lies or mistakes in assumptions, but we're there now, we can't leave behind a festering chaos so ripe to catalyze more jihaddists. Sure, we're angering our potential enemies, but if we leave in defeat they'll still be angry, but the Iraqi people will suffer from our deeds and those blahphamous muslims that insists on such violence will have a more fertile ground to organize than in the pre-invasion Iraq. Not winning would lose much credibilty, credibilty that can save lives now and later, esp. when we re-gain or improve upon our higher moral ground...and such a higher moral ground is attainable yet, from our invasion of Iraq, if we can win it. Really, no one else can, certainly no nearby Arab armies or armies from a muslim country can.

We can '"win it"

-- like we did after WWII in: Germany, Japan, & South Korea ('cause we sure as hell lost that war & the peace in North Korea against communist China, 1950-53).
__________________

"A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user." President Theodore Roosevelt, 1913.

BigSkiff · 01-28-2005, 01:04 PM

I would be the first to agree that "we made a mess in Iraq". The difference, as I see it, between WWII and Iraq, is that in WWII we were at war with other sovereign nations. Nations with armies and navies. In other words, definable opponents. In Iraq our alleged disagreement was not with the people of Iraq, acording to our govenrment. It was with terrorists within the government. The government of Iraq no longer exists. Technically, we have defeated the government of Iraq and it's army. Our president has, several month ago, declared an end (and victory) to this "war" with Iraq. We're here - Lets win it ........ has been done, at least in theory. It is impossible to fight or win a war against an enemy you can not identify. (See Viet Nam). We, as a nation, will never be able to do anything more in Iraq than we have already done. How many more people need to die to prove the inevitable?

falchulk · 01-28-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSkiff

I would be the first to agree that "we made a mess in Iraq". The difference, as I see it, between WWII and Iraq, is that in WWII we were at war with other sovereign nations. Nations with armies and navies. In other words, definable opponents. In Iraq our alleged disagreement was not with the people of Iraq, acording to our govenrment. It was with terrorists within the government. The government of Iraq no longer exists. Technically, we have defeated the government of Iraq and it's army. Our president has, several month ago, declared an end (and victory) to this "war" with Iraq. We're here - Lets win it ........ has been done, at least in theory. It is impossible to fight or win a war against an enemy you can not identify. (See Viet Nam). We, as a nation, will never be able to anything more in Iraq than we have already done. How many more people need to die to prove the inevitable?

These same hit-and-run tactics were used by the Germans after world war 2. The idiots in Iraq did not invent this method of warfare and neither did the Viet Cong. Notice that Germany worked out becuase we stayed.

BudmanHemi · 01-28-2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSkiff

I would be the first to agree that "we made a mess in Iraq". The difference, as I see it, between WWII and Iraq, is that in WWII we were at war with other sovereign nations. Nations with armies and navies. In other words, definable opponents. In Iraq our alleged disagreement was not with the people of Iraq, acording to our govenrment. It was with terrorists within the government. The government of Iraq no longer exists. Technically, we have defeated the government of Iraq and it's army. Our president has, several month ago, declared an end (and victory) to this "war" with Iraq. We're here - Lets win it ........ has been done, at least in theory. It is impossible to fight or win a war against an enemy you can not identify. (See Viet Nam). We, as a nation, will never be able to anything more in Iraq than we have already done. How many more people need to die to prove the inevitable?

You can not be more right! Our moron president sent my friends, and others friends in there for a a war under false pretences. Now thousands our being killed to make his father happy. I must say his father pulled out of iraq because he said I quote " I will not put my troops in a endless war" That is a statement GB said when he pulled out. Now his son goes in, and he's a idiot that thinks he can win this. I think after the iraq election we pull out. That will give the US goverment a excuse for leaving. If there's any problems after that we help by some troops going over. It amazes me who voted for GW. We could have possibly had this fixed. I mean its a mess to fix he created, but now this moron is ready to take over the world. He has no solution, he just wants to conquer. He's a freakin' goofball. Worst thing to come our of texas in the last 50yrs.

falchulk · 01-28-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BudmanHemi

You can not be more right! Our moron president sent my friends, and others friends in there for a a war under false pretences. Now thousands our being killed to make his father happy. I must say his father pulled out of iraq because he said I quote " I will not put my troops in a endless war" That is a statement GB said when he pulled out. Now his son goes in, and he's a idiot that thinks he can win this. I think after the iraq election we pull out. That will give the US goverment a excuse for leaving. If there's any problems after that we help by some troops going over. It amazes me who voted for GW. We could have possibly had this fixed. I mean its a mess to fix he created, but now this moron is ready to take over the world. He has no solution, he just wants to conquer. He's a freakin' goofball. Worst thing to come our of texas in the last 50yrs.

He has no soloution because one does not exist. To say we pull out is insane. That country would end up like Afghanistan after the Russians left. Endless war and a rallying point for extremists. What made Bin Laden a hero was they gave him credit for driving Russia out. He actually thinks he single handedly caused the collapse of the USSR becuase of Afghanistan? Your suggestion would create terrorists. Great plan, maybe you should have ran against Bush.

*COTitan* · 01-28-2005, 01:54 PM

The sad part is 51 percent think he is the man for the job! Now what does that say about the US as a country. It is kind of scary that is the intellectual level of this country.

*Squid* · 01-28-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSkiff

. It is impossible to fight or win a war against an enemy you can not identify. (See Viet Nam). We, as a nation, will never be able to anything more in Iraq than we have already done. How many more people need to die to prove the inevitable?

As a Veteran of the Persian Gulf from 1980 to 1986, that was what beat the Russians.

Pass by in the morning and they are just a group of nomads. Pass by after lunch, and that same group of nomads put a RPG up your butt.

And lets not forget our Nations Fondness for "Do not fire, unless fired upon. Rules of Engagement." Don't want to upset the reporters.

Thank God, I'm sitting here behind my keyboard, safe, warm, and dry.

BigSkiff · 01-28-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falchulk

These same hit-and-run tactics were used by the Germans after world war 2. The idiots in Iraq did not invent this method of warfare and neither did the Viet Cong. Notice that Germany worked out becuase we stayed.

Guerrilla warfare is not new, it's been practiced for centuries. (American Reveloution is one example). The Germans surrendered and allowed their attitude to be "readjusted" because of their European neighbors. Our allies, were not only occupying their country, they surrounded it with their countries as well. In essence the european allies controlled Germany's economic future and therfore, the German social and political future. The USA was factor, for sure, but not the primary reason for Germany's change. There is no base for this kind of pressure in the mid-east. The muslim and arab nations are/were happy with their way of life. They resent our intrusion into their lands, and they will wait until we leave to resettle and continue. We don't have any "real" allies in this fiasco. Those we do have can not and will not impart any kind of pressure on the muslim world that would make a difference.

Guerilla warefare always wins unless you are willing to completely obliterate another nation, or region of nations, with an opposing attitude and guerrilla forces. I would hope that we, as a "nation on the moral high ground" would not be willing to act so shamefully. You can not defeat a force you can not identify.

It is time to move on and bring the killing to an end.

TallTexan · 01-28-2005, 02:09 PM

Have a bud-hemi and relax. What you been smokin boy! You don't know anything about these other wars you talk about. WW2 was fought liberating a lot of other countries where atrocities were being carried out daily, heard of hollocaust. We liberated those countries because of who we are, not what we are. I am a Vietnam vet and we never lost that war, your hero Lyndon Johnson lost that war. Had we been loosed we could have destroyed that place in 3 months. Armchair generals were calling the shots , like your self, but they were sitting in the Whitehouse. Over 50,000 friends of mine died because of that idiot. GW may be trying to liberate the Iraquis, but the Generals are running the war, not him. 1300 troups dead in this entire war, that is a miracle. We lost that in a month. I am glad that when we were trying to whip the British for our independence, folks like the French sailed over here and helped us win our freedom. Glad you were not a frenchman during those times, we would still have a King and a Queen to answer to here. Now we just have a lot of queens around San Francisco. Forgive me if I sound defensive, a few of those names on that wall in Washington were friends of mine and a couple of them died right beside me. A lot of folks can now say that if this was done or that was done , things would have been better. Hind site is always 20-20. But you are right, you have the right to say and think anything you want to in this good old USA. I know a few folks who paid the bill for those rights.

pluckyew · 01-28-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falchulk

These same hit-and-run tactics were used by the Germans after world war 2. The idiots in Iraq did not invent this method of warfare and neither did the Viet Cong. Notice that Germany worked out becuase we stayed.

"...idiots in Iraq did not invent this method..."

well said, falchulk.

matter of fact, way back then our own Minuitmen (bless them) were really good at it against our colonial rulers....and back then only 1/3rd of the colonists in the 13 states wanted independance, about another 1/3 were fense sitters and the rest of 1/3rd were for Loyalist to the Throne.

my point is that popular sentiments alone don't make it right or wrong...we just need eough people with conviction to finish the fight we started, for the cost will be more to quit and run away from unfinished business. sweeping crisis under the rug, like we may have done 1953 in N. Korea may come back to haunt us...as N. Korea is now with thier nuclear bombs and their puny rockets.

moral: do not ever hurt your enemy lightly.

"...The coward believes he will live forever
If he holds back in the battle,
But in old age he shall have no peace
Though spears have spared his limbs...

...Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead...

...If aware that another is wicked, say so:
Make no truce or treaty with foes..."

from The Havamal

pluckyew · 01-28-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallTexan

...I am glad that when we were trying to whip the British for our independence, folks like the French sailed over here and helped us win our freedom. Glad you were not a frenchman during those times, we would still have a King and a Queen to answer to here. ... I know a few folks who paid the bill for those rights.

Let not our different points-of-view cloud this fact: we owe the French, Viv' la France! For our great USA may not have won our independence, until much later, if ever. Look how proud France had suffered from thier own appeasers in WWII.

Too bad we don't have a man with a mindset like TallTexan running the Pentagon, DoD.

radiokid · 01-28-2005, 03:42 PM

Underneath it all we all want the same thing that the Iraqi people want and that is peace and freedom. These extreme protesters read terrorists, have no nation or any political base to call home, they are just displaced veterans of the old administration who lost all their political capital. Now they force young boys and women to do their dirty work in a vain attempt to bring back "the good old days". Losers all.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls Osama, al Queida et al, it tolls for thee.

Bill_n · 01-28-2005, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COTitan

The sad part is 51 percent think he is the man for the job! Now want does that say about the US as a country. It is kind of scary that is the intellectual level of this country.

If the last few presidential elections have taught us nothing else ...

They should have taught us that we are country almost evenly divided (by population ... not geography) between almost diametrically opposing philosophies ....

These words are as true today as they were 230 years ago ....

Quote:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

It's time to start talking about dividing the country ....

Life is too short to spend it arguing ....

*Squid* · 01-28-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COTitan

The sad part is 51 percent think he is the man for the job! Now want does that say about the US as a country. It is kind of scary that is the intellectual level of this country.

It's not that 51% of the country thought Bush was the man for the job. Rather that 51% thought Kerry wasn't.

I have never voted for a President. I always vote against the person I feel shouldn't be. I keep waiting for someone to come along to change that strategy. And I'm still waiting, as are most.

The question is not what it says about the country. But what it says about Politics.

rvandam · 01-28-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falchulk

These same hit-and-run tactics were used by the Germans after world war 2.

Mmmm, I guess we somehow skipped that part of Germany's history in my history lessons back in Europe. Could you point me to some sources that describe this behavior after WWII in Germany?