does not deserve to be president

[Kooshtaka]

Originally Posted by gr8titan

Individual perspectives vary and quite a few blame GWB for the "terrorism gone wild". But one perspective that is not viewed with open eyes is the historical perspective of the present state we are in. Good intelligence or bad intelligence, any President has to make a difficult decision on what direction to take and what plan of action to follow based on the current information at hand. History will always paint the picture from a non-political perspective. Vote with your heart and mind.

Feb 23, 1993 World Trade Center (US) bombed for the first time.
Suspects: A jury found conspirators guilty in March 4, 1994. However, Abdul Rahmin Yasin has not been captured and believed to have fled to Iraq. Links with Al Quieda
President: Bill Clinton. Military Action: NONE
Nov 13, 1995 Car bomb explodes at OPM-SANG (Saudi Arabia) killing 5 Americans and injuring 30
Suspect: Unknown terrorist link
President: Bill Clinton Military Action: NONE
June 25, 1996 Khobar Towers (Saudi Arabia) - Car bomb explodes and kills 19 GIs and hundreds injured. Suspect: Unknown terrorist links
President: Bill Clinton Military Action: NONE
Aug 7, 1998 - US Embassy bombings. 213 dead and 5000 injuries in Nairobi (Kenya) and 11 Americans dead with 86 injuries in Dar es Salaam (Tanzania)
Suspect: Osama Bin Laden
President: Bill Clinton Military Action: In Sudan, US guided missiles destroyed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical plant, where 50% of Sudan's medications for both people and animals were manufactured. In Afganistan, US fired guided missles into the desert tent of Bin Laden. No casualties
Oct 12, 2000 USS Cole is attacked while docked (Yemen) 17 sailors dead with 39 wounded
Suspect: Osama Bin Laden
President: Bill Clinton Military Action: NONE

Sept 11, 2001 World Trade Center (US) demolished by hijacked US commercial planes. Similar attacks also at the Pentagon. Total casualties: about 3,000 Americans and countless injured.
Suspect: Osama Bin Laden
President: George W. Bush Military Action: Multi-national force deposed the Taliban government of Afganistan and established a democracy.
Oct 11, 2002 - Declaration of War passed by US Senate 77-23 and House 296-133 based on US intelligence.
Nov 8, 2002 - UN resolution on Iraq approved to force WMD site inspections and restore security in the area based on UN intelligence.
Military Action: Multi-national pre-emptive strike deposed Hussein of Iraq based on a Declaration of War passed in the Senate and House in Oct 11, 2002. Establishment of a Democratic government encounters bumps due to Iraq's internal religious squabbles. Present military surge declared "effective" by both US political parties.

NOTE: No succesfull attacks in the US after 9-11-01
Question: Is inaction an effective deterrence to terrorism or not? Reminder: Please vote your heart and mind.

Those are some very good dates, but i see that you didn't mention that it was America that put the Taliban government in power in the first place. Specifically Osama Bin Landin recieved training and weapons from American. The one of the reasons why he hates America is that America historical has a very bad relationship in the Middle East and he takes his anger toward America to the extreme. Now we have some serious fences to mend with many countries in the Middle East. I don't believe that really any of the canidates are pushing "inaction" as a international policy. I know that for a fact that Obama has supported actions to go after al-Queida in Pakistan. I think Teddy Roosevelt said it perfectly, "talk softly, but carry a big stick!"... first attempt talks, but back up the talks with force.

[Kooshtaka]

Originally Posted by redneckpapa1996

Takes years to clean up prior messes from a two term prez....more than just 8yrs........
The mess we are in now is a direct result of the clinton years !!!!!!!!!
Face it, he was a wimpass joke as president just like his wife will be.... He put this country in turmoil that will haunt us for many more years...
Maybe his wife can clean up his mess.....HAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!

So isn't any of the mess we are in Bush's fault? Every generation inherits some of the previous' messes/ evils- the same could be said for any job, the new person always has to clean up the previous person's cr@p.

[Kooshtaka]

Originally Posted by BLBJBranch

^^^^ Great Points!!!

Unfortunately, there are far too many people too stupid (and too intent to continue hating Bush because he "stole" the election from Mr. Global Warming/Global Cooling) to see the reality behind the world situation.

I'll grant you that there are loads of people out there that are just sheep and hating Bush because other people are telling them to do so. But if you don't mind answering the following question for me:
What is this "reality behind the world situation" you speak of?

[Kooshtaka]

Originally Posted by nytitan1

Sad part is that the same people that are crying now over iraq wouldve been the same people to cry if we did do a premptive strike against afghanistan they would always find some reason why we should have done it this way or that.
Look saddam had to be dealt with and yes i do feel we should have gotten obama i mean osama first. But everyone knows that saddam for sure wanted to make his mark on this world in a bad way. He had to be taken out because sooner or later we would have heard from him.
Could you imagine the outcry if bush bombed afghanistan to thwart 9/11 my god what did he do he is satan if clinton had any balls he would have taken care of this a long time agowhen he had the chance. Boy has this gotten off topic lol.

I'm not saying that we should not have done something about Saddam. What I am saying is that we should have FINISHED in Afganistan and had a secure, stable place to work from in the area. AND the Bush's administration had an intelligence officer do a study on how best to deal with Saddam. Do you know what he told them?... He said DON'T INVADE! IT WILL TURN OUT TO BE ONE GIGANTIC MESS!! Bush's admin. didn't like the answers he gave them so they decided to DISREGARD the advice and went and did exactly what he told them not to do. So what is the effect of this action?... TWO countries that are both NOT sercure or stable, and a significant growth in animosity toward Americans worldwide.
Just to make things clear... I'm not crying about Iraq because I think we shouldn't have done anything. I AM saying that we did things exactly the WRONG WAY! And that is not troops fault, it is Bush's and his administration's.

[swat71]

If any of you guys believe any photo you see on the internet then your vote will probably go the wrong way anyway. I have never worn an American flag in 32 years, but I love my country. I have seen so many B.S. pics on here that it would be absolutlety stupid to even waste time on TT with this crap!! By the way I will be voting for Obama and if by chance he doesn't make it then Clinton...lol! If all else fail then I'm voting for that brilliant silver Titan thats in my driveway!

[Kooshtaka]

Originally Posted by gr8titan

ABC News had this report a while back about the relationship between Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Historically, Saddam Hussein offered Iraq as a safe haven to Carlos the Jackal, Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, who were well known notorious terrorists of their times. For what it's worth, ABC, the reporting news agency is a liberal organization.
Here's the link:

A lot of people conveniently push back all these information to forgotten past but recorded history has a very long memory and accurate recollection. What does Barrack Hussein Obama think about this relationship?

I'm not debating whether Saddam offered a safe haven to terrorist, but i noticed that in your list of terrorists that he offered safe haven to- you did not list Osama Bin Laden in that list.
You say that recorded history has a very long memory and "accurate" recollection. So is it acurate when Columbus "discovered America," when the Alamo is discussed, on what side of the line was the Alamo? these are just a couple of examples I could think of off the top of my head. If you want to know more examples I can PM them to you.
Just currious, when you use Obama's middle name- what is your intention?

[Kooshtaka]

Originally Posted by adavis99

Gr8Titan... All would agree that Clinton dropped the ball with Bin Laden. He f*cked up by not making him a priority...and some of the stories I've heard about him not taking Osama on a silver platter make me really, really, really pissed.

But...just as not taking action was costly, so is the war in Iraq. I think we've lost more soldiers over there than all the terrorist attacks you mention, including 9/11....and it's cost us way more money too. However, the point about no attacks since 9/11 is true...although I'm not convinced that it is because we invaded IRAQ. We could have stayed the course in Afghanistan, caught Osama, and made an example of him. Instead...we have Iraq.

Clinton was wrong for not taking enough action. Bush was wrong not for taking action, but for getting us into Iraq and losing sight of our goal. Maybe the next president will get it right? I hope so.

I don't think i could have said it better myself...

[nytitan1]

Originally Posted by swat71

If any of you guys believe any photo you see on the internet then your vote will probably go the wrong way anyway. I have never worn an American flag in 32 years, but I love my country. I have seen so many B.S. pics on here that it would be absolutlety stupid to even waste time on TT with this crap!! By the way I will be voting for Obama and if by chance he doesn't make it then Clinton...lol! If all else fail then I'm voting for that brilliant silver Titan thats in my driveway!

The picture that you speak of is real there is a video of it too if it doesnt mean much to you that is your perogative. And you can vote for whoever you wish that is why america is great you can make your own choices, me I would not vote for this man if he was the only candidate. With all of the social programs he wants it is impossible to pay for. And i pay more then enough in taxes. And i am a vet so a little bit of respect for my country is all i ask when the anthem is played might not mean alot to other people but it means a hell of alot tome just my opinion.

[gr8titan]

Originally Posted by Kooshtaka

I'm not debating whether Saddam offered a safe haven to terrorist, but i noticed that in your list of terrorists that he offered safe haven to- you did not list Osama Bin Laden in that list.
You say that recorded history has a very long memory and "accurate" recollection. So is it acurate when Columbus "discovered America," when the Alamo is discussed, on what side of the line was the Alamo? these are just a couple of examples I could think of off the top of my head. If you want to know more examples I can PM them to you.
Just currious, when you use Obama's middle name- what is your intention?

Why is OBL not on the list? The answer is in one phrase: "pre-emptive strike"
Saddam eventually was on the run to save his skin and being dead didn't help his prospective relationship with OBL either.

Columbus? Don't get me started about irrelevant arguments. Columbus will not prove or disprove this topic at hand. Only children do this "stuff". We're supposed to be well educated logical adults here. Modern recordings that include audio-video files of actual events are more accurate than individual written accounts of events done centuries ago. And don't even consider arguing about the "possibility of re-editing" because this holds true too for written records.

William Jefferson Clinton, Hillary Roddam Clinton, Barrack Hussein Obama and George Walker Bush are called "Full Names". It is the most legal way to call a person. For some additional information, Barrack's father is also Barrack Hussein Obama and his grandmother is also a Hussein. BTW....what was the point of your curiousity?

[gr8titan]

Originally Posted by Kooshtaka

Those are some very good dates, but i see that you didn't mention that it was America that put the Taliban government in power in the first place. Specifically Osama Bin Landin recieved training and weapons from American.

The reason that Supporting Taliban government was not on the list above is that this event IS NOT AN ACT OF WAR against the Ameican institution. This was an act supported by our Congress to counter the spread to Soviet domination in the region. OBL was an ally at that time because of this. However, this does not give him the right to kill innocent Americans. To the contrary, OBL should have been thankfull for all the help he received from the US when he fought and defeated the Russians.

The one of the reasons why he hates America is that America historical has a very bad relationship in the Middle East and he takes his anger toward America to the extreme. Now we have some serious fences to mend with many countries in the Middle East.

Meaning it is personal for him. He could hate anyone he desires. It's his freedom.
But I personally and the 3,000 plus civilians that perished at the WTC had no quarrel with him until Sept 11, 2001. I used to work in lower Manhattan near the WTC and I take this attack personally on my well-being.

I don't believe that really any of the canidates are pushing "inaction" as a international policy. I know that for a fact that Obama has supported actions to go after al-Queida in Pakistan. I think Teddy Roosevelt said it perfectly, "talk softly, but carry a big stick!"... first attempt talks, but back up the talks with force.

Obama's plan to go after AQ (or anybody else at that) inside Sovereign Nation like Pakistan smart and diplomatic? You've got to invade the country first!! Just like Afganistan and Iraq. What are you talking about?
Can Obama swing the big stick? Or will the stick be too big to handle?
Or will he be like Bill Clinton who dropped the ball for being diplomatic?

[Kronos1965]

Originally Posted by nytitan1

I would not vote for this man if he was the only candidate. With all of the social programs he wants it is impossible to pay for. And i pay more then enough in taxes. And i am a vet so a little bit of respect for my country is all i ask when the anthem is played might not mean alot to other people but it means a hell of alot tome just my opinion.

And how is the current conflict in Iraq being paid for? With your taxes!

[Kronos1965]

Originally Posted by gr8titan

William Jefferson Clinton, Hillary Roddam Clinton, Barrack Hussein Obama and George Walker Bush are called "Full Names". It is the most legal way to call a person. For some additional information, Barrack's father is also Barrack Hussein Obama and his grandmother is also a Hussein. BTW....what was the point of your curiousity?

People who seem to be on the right are using the political trick of tying name-recollection and thereby making people link Saddam Hussein and Hussein Obama...

[Kronos1965]

Originally Posted by redneckpapa1996

Takes years to clean up prior messes from a two term prez....more than just 8yrs........
The mess we are in now is a direct result of the clinton years !!!!!!!!!
Face it, he was a wimpass joke as president just like his wife will be.... He put this country in turmoil that will haunt us for many more years...
Maybe his wife can clean up his mess.....HAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!

President Clinton did not invade Iraq.

President Bush did and failed to understand the consequences of not removing Saddam Hussein from power.

The next President Bush came in under false pretenses to go into Iraq under the "state terrorism" theory.

The failure of the military events that were described were largely due to the military's failure to identify appropriate levels of security. Simply putting them up as targets and then when they get hit, blame the President for a lack of retaliation hardly constitutes good strategy.

Israel has been doing it for years and we know that the strategy doesn't work.

[BLBJBranch]

Originally Posted by Kooshtaka

What is this "reality behind the world situation" you speak of?

Here's the reality as I see it:

1. Our economy is based on a global market and yes, oil is involved in this issue. There is an effort by several rogue nations to affect us economically by screwing with the price of oil. They can't compete with us militarily, so they'll undermine us by manipulating the price and availability of oil. To combat this, Republicans want to open more drilling in the U.S., but the Dems won't allow it because some furry mouse may have to move 20 feet west, or some d**khead senator may have to look at a platform from one of his numerous summer homes.
2. Muslim extremists are INTENT on making Islam a world religion. They will not stop until the entire world has converted. It's one of their core beliefs. They will attempt to do this through the use of terrorism and slow expansion and anyone that gets in their way is subject to destruction. History is full of examples of this behavior. Unfortunately, our country has accepted the religion with open arms and the law allows them to prostelitise all they want here (although a Christian can be executed in the middle east for it). So instead of a threat from Islam from our borders, the threat will come from within.

That's the reality as I see it. Now for some feedback to some of the other points:

1. Bin Laden's main beef with America had little to do with American policies in the middle east. He was pissed because we had a military presence in Saudi Arabia, the holy land. He was also pissed because Saudi Arabia used our help against Saddam in the Persian Gulf war instead of his. And yes, Saddam did actually invade Saudi Arabia at that time.
2. The CIA did help the Taliban get into power, because at the time it helped stop the surge of communism. However, it was during the Clinton years that the Taliban started abusing their power, not to mention women and children. And what caused all the human rights violations...wait for it...Islamic Sharia Law. It was also during the Clinton years that the Taliban started imprisoning and executing non-muslims. Do you remember them destroying the ancient Buddhist statues? And what did the UN do about it? Nothing. So all the liberal whiners can b!tch and moan about Darfur all day long with Bush, but they didn't say sh!t to Clinton when this was going on.

[Elias60]

This is very simple it all comes down to us supporting Israel as long as we continue to support Isreal the majority of the Middle East is going to continue to hate us plain and simple. Everything else is a by product of our policy to support Israel and not the Arabs. This issue does not have an easy answer its been here for thousands of years, and will continue, all we can do is manage it as best we can, but I don't see any real solution to it.