K&N Filter and Mass Air Flow Sensor

[TitanNorth]

I know I have read threads in the past, but I was wondering what the deal is with the K&N air filters "cloggingup" the MAF. I had a little hiccup with the truck the other day, I took it into the dealer, and they told me to get the K&N filter out asap, as they have been replacing the MAF's due to the oil from the K&N. Now I have heard alot of BS in my day, but is this true or are they feeding me a line because they have had a lot of problems with these particular sensors.

Any info will help.

Guy

[Sammy Sandbag]

If you over oil your K&N filter it could easily happen. Just don't put too much oil on it and you shouldn't have any problem. I ran a K&N drop in filter in my old truck for 5 years with no problems. When I cleaned it I let it dry out for a long time and was also careful about oiling it.

[TitanNorth]

Originally Posted by sammy sandbag

If you over oil your K&N filter it could easily happen. Just don't put too much oil on it and you should have any problem. I ran a K&N drop in filter in my old truck for 5 years with no problems. When I cleaned it I let it dry out for a long time and was also careful about oiling it.

Thanks Sammy, but I havent even cleaned it once yet...the truck only has 9000 miles......I had a 94 pathfinder for 8 yrs and ran a K&N the whole time with no issue either. but when I took the truck in the service manager told me to get the K&N out as it would be a $600 replacement part that is not under warranty.

gb

[Billin' Time]

My dealer did a Stillen package on a Titan on the lot which included the K&N FIPK. I doubt that he will tell the eventual purchaser that the MAF for that truck will not be covered under warranty because of it . . .

[cgfitzp]

I have 25 years experiance with oiled filters in the motorcycle world, both 2 stroke and 4 stroke for street and dirt use. They work on dirt bikes, when you remove the filter for service the air intake is clean—clean. Often the air box is so dirty you have to clean it before removing the filter.

That being said excess oil is sucked in and burned in combustion.

The only problem I can see is that oil might cause problems with some sensors in the intake path or the filter has done it's job.

K&N filters often pass more air than OEM filters and require more fuel causing a lean condition. If for some reason like an inoperative sensor, the lean condition isn't adjusted for, you will also get an engine stutter.

If the filter is very dirty it will restrict air flow and cause the engine to stutter.

If the filter is clogged after traveling terrain which wouldn't clog the stock filter it saved you engine from eating all the dirt and is doing it's job.

Chet

[RedMunsta]

I believe the K&N box claims that the filter will not void any car warranty. You may want to check into this, but as far as I know, as long as it's a certified air filter, they cannot disclude it under warranty.

[Sammy Sandbag]

This should cover it:

:::Begin quote:::

Dear K&N Consumer:

K&N Engineering, Inc., is informed that some automobile dealers and manufacturers are telling their customers that the factory warranty on their motor vehicles is “void,” if an original equipment (OE) replacement air filter, manufactured by K&N, has been installed on their vehicles. K&N finds such instances disturbing, and while it does not purport to give legal advice, K&N would like to refer you to the federal Consumer Product Warranties law, often referred to as the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which states, in part, in Title 15, United States Code, Section 2302, subdivision (c), as follows:

“No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the [Federal Trade] Commission if –

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.”

Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, or other service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer. K&N is unaware of any exemption or waiver granted by the FTC to any motor vehicle manufacturer, which pertains to air filters or oil filters.

K&N interprets this law to also prohibit the motor vehicle manufacturer from restricting your use of a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, etc. K&N’s interpretation of this law is consistent with the interpretation given it by the FTC, the government agency responsible for the interpretation and enforcement of this federal law.

The rules and regulations adopted by the FTC, to govern the interpretation and enforcement of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, are set forth in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 16 - Commercial Practices, Chapter I - Federal Trade Commission, Subchapter G - Rules, Regulations, Statements and Interpretations Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Part 700 - Interpretations Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Contained within these rules and regulations is Section 700.10, which states, in relevant part (with specific language highlighted by K&N), as follows:

“(c) No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, "This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized 'ABC' dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine 'ABC' parts," and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102(c) ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.”

We think this FTC rule is pretty clear and unambiguous. Please note that the FTC requires the “warrantor” (this would, generally, be your motor vehicle manufacturer) to “demonstrate” that the defect in or damage to your vehicle was caused by your installation or use of a K&N air or oil filter, or other “unauthorized” part, before a warranty claim can be denied. We contend that this requires credible proof as to the cause of a failure and not merely your dealer’s guess, speculation or unfounded opinion as to the cause.

Therefore, K&N considers any threat to void your factory warranty, or the actual voiding of your factory warranty, solely for the installation of a K&N replacement air filter or oil filter, to be a violation of federal law.

The foregoing addresses only your rights and protection under federal law. Of course, you may have greater rights under the consumer warranty laws applicable in your state.

If you have encountered a motor vehicle dealer or manufacturer, who refuses to perform warranty repairs on your vehicle, solely because you have installed a K&N replacement air filter or oil filter, then we ask that you request that the dealer set forth the warranty denial, in writing, together with a written statement that the warranty on your vehicle has been voided because of the installation of the K&N air filter or oil filter, and that you send a copy of this written statement to K&N. We also ask that you direct your dealer and manufacturer to the federal law quoted above. While K&N cannot act as your legal advocate or assume responsibility for enforcing your warranty rights under state and federal law, we will write to the dealership and to your motor vehicle manufacturer and insist that they provide a legal basis for their position.

In addition to any action K&N may take, you should consult an attorney and various state and federal agencies, who may be able to assist you in protecting and enforcing your warranty rights, if you encounter a motor vehicle dealer’s or manufacturer’s refusal to honor your motor vehicle warranty.



Sincerely,

STEVE ROGERS,
President & CEO
K&N Engineering, Inc.

:::end quote:::

Copied from: http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm

[todd92]

If a film of oil deposited on the air flow sensor caused it to provide an incorrect input to the ECU, wouldn't a shot of contact cleaner fix it? Why would you have to replace it?

[Austin]

Sammy -

The Magnuson Moss act does apply in most situations, but not necessarily in this situation.

The Magnuson Moss warranty act says that no auto manufacturer may "void" a warranty.

Simply put, if you replace an oem part with an aftermarket part, that aftermarket part does not have warranty coverage. If that aftermarket part causes the failure of an oem part, you may be denied warranty service on the failed oem part.

The burden of proving that an aftermarket part has caused the failure of an oem part usually rests with the dealer.

If the oil from an aftermarket oiled reuseable filter damages the MAF sensor, then that MAF sensor need not be warrantied by the dealer/manufacturer.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Austin,

You might as well be speaking Spanish, cause Sammy and law talk don't mix. But that was what was posted on K&N's website, and I would think they'd know what's going on, as their own arse is on the line. I think we can at least agree that TitanNorth's dealer is just looking for an excuse instead of actually diagnosing the problem. I had the same thing with my old truck and Chevy giving me a hard time about my aftermarket stereo being the cause of a bad battery. Just poor customer relations and lazy dealers only concerned with profit.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by sammy sandbag

Austin,

You might as well be speaking Spanish, cause Sammy and law talk don't mix. But that was what was posted on K&N's website, and I would think they'd know what's going on, as their own arse is on the line. I think we can at least agree that TitanNorth's dealer is just looking for an excuse instead of actually diagnosing the problem. I had the same thing with my old truck and Chevy giving me a hard time about my aftermarket stereo being the cause of a bad battery. Just poor customer relations and lazy dealers only concerned with profit.

Yes, I agree that most dealers, Nissan and other makes, get pretty creative with the reasons they deny warranty coverage.

In my personal experience, oiled filters, when oiled correctly, pose no threat to hot wire MAF sensors. When over-oiled, however, a big glob of oil can get hung up on the sensor wire, causing the sensor to fail.

I'm not saying that is what happened in TitanNorth's case - what I'm saying is that the dealer may have a valid concern. If it's an honest dealership and they actually removed the MAF sensor and visually verified a big drop of oil on the sensor, then they were right to tell him to pull out the K&N.

We've all seen a hundred dealerships that install aftermarket parts on a brand new vehicle, and then sell the vehicle that way. Even though the dealer sold the truck with a nice cold air intake, headers and a full exhaust, they do not have to warranty those parts. Also, they do not have to warranty any OEM parts which fail as a result of those aftermarket parts.

You buy your new truck with a CAI, go drive through a big puddle, suck up a bunch of water, hydrolock the engine and bust a couple conrods. The dealer is not required to warranty your engine, as it clearly failed as a result of aftermarket parts, regardless of who installed those aftermarket parts.

[Dude]

Strange how Nissan could say your warranty is voided, because of the K&N Filter when I bought my K&N Filter from Nissan. If they sell them, then how they can they deny coverage. I know all Nissan dealers might not sell them, but I would imagine a bulletin has not been released by Nissan saying that no dealer should sell K&N Filters, which would imply that the filters are allowed. I better hang onto my receipt in case they try to give me any crap. I have had K&Ns on my Mustang, Avalanche, Camaro, and TransAm and never had any problems. I am surprised they didn't tell you the K&N is what caused your radio problem.

[Austin]

Dude - your warranty is not voided. That will never happen.

They can deny warranty coverage on any failed oem part if the non-oem part caused that failure - regardless of who put the non-oem part on the truck. They can deny warranty coverage in that situation because the Magnuson Moss acts says they can.

[Dude]

I know the whole warranty isn't voided. I guess in Nissan's defense(which I don't like to do), somebody could over oil the filter and actually cause the defect. I guess to be on the safe side I will remove the K&N, before bring it to the dealership. Looks like it is time to peel off that K&N sticker from the airbox lid.

[SupraTitan]

A K&N can and will destroy the mass air flow sensor. No contact cleaner or other solvent will make things better only worse. Off course it has to be pretty much dripping oil, which is an easy thing to do if your a K&N recharger rookie.

Why should Nissan have to flip the bill for a mass air flow sensor that was ruined by a missused K&N, they will not and don't have too. I firmly believe the benefits of a K&N(increased air flow) are out weighed by the negatives(poor filtration and possible maf damage).