Additional fuel tank...

[O'silent1]

Hello all. I have been monitoring this site for many months now and have never had a need to register as it seems someone has already asked every question I have come up with. Finally I have come across a question of my own and a reason to join a great bunch of people. First, let me set the scenario....
In March, I turned in my 3rd GM truck and took delivery of my Sedona Titan SE Popular package 4x4 Big tow w/ Utility package. It now has close to 3,000 miles on it and I felt it was ready for it's first big camping trip. The trailer I tow is a 23' R-vision with a dry weight of 3,600lbs and a GVWR of 5,100lbs +/-. Almost immediately after leaving Phoenix north on I-17, you come to a pretty steep grade up Sunset Point. While I was able to hold 70mph, the transmission shifted about a zillion times (I have since read that you should shift down to 4th when towing and yes, I did activate the tow/haul mode switch). Needless to say, my gas mileage for that tank was 8.1mpg. On the return trip (downhill, yeh!!!!), I averaged 11.4. Initally I was mortified but then considering, I guess it is not that bad. This got me thinking about how to increase my range. I have found the exterior tanks that are disguised as a tool box and think that is a pretty neat idea, however....
Question -
I am curious what you all think about an external natural gas/propane/alternative fuel (not sure of the proper terminology) tank mounted in the foreward section of the bed.
1. Is this a safe idea?
2. How would it change the engine performance/wear n tear?
3. Would this most likely void my warranty?
I guess I am trying to figure out if this would be a viable option.
Also, everybody else always posts pictures of their babies sparkling clean. I figured I would submit one a little dirty. You should have seen it covered in mud. What fun.

[bestatchess]

If your primary concern is cruising range, an alternative fuel such as compressed natural gas would not be the way to go as the energy content is less than gasoline.

Taking into account retrofit costs and warranty issues, IMHO if you want a natural gas powered vehicle you should buy one:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/progs/afdc/search_type.cgi?1|CNG

[O'silent1]

Hey what gives? My first post was an absolute flop. I reeled in 1 whole response (thanks bestatchess). Bad breath, forgot my deoderant, what? I did not even get an response from the king of posts, rrumaner. Your hurtin my feelings fellow Titaneers. lol But seriously, doesn't anybody know anything about the effects of natural gas on a gasoline combustion engine?

[shleprock]

Umm your kidding right?!!!.

[pagerdaddy]

Originally Posted by O'silent1

Hey what gives? My first post was an absolute flop. I reeled in 1 whole response (thanks bestatchess).

I doubt if anyone could give you any better response than bestatchess did.

As far as where gas tanks go, it seems like every manufacturer puts them
between the frame rails for safety reasons. I think alot of people became
crispy critters back in the days when you found tanks behind the seat,
outside the frame, or some other location flirt'n with disaster. Remember the
Pinto? I remember a few years ago a company was making a type of gas
tank that had some type of sponge-like material in it that would keep it from
exploding in the event of an accident. Don't know if that design ever went
anywhere.

As far as alternate fuel sources, hell, most of these guys are still experi-
menting with mufflers and air filters. I'm just now getting around to checking
the air in my tires.

If you really want to save money, get one of those tents that fits in the
bed and a couple of sleeping bags. I bet that would give you a nearly 10
mpg increase over that camper.

Steve

[O'silent1]

No I'm not. As referenced in the first post, when towing, I would like to expand my range by expanding my fuel capacity. Instead of using one of these -
http://www.industrialtoolstore.com/d...ems/-58817.htm
I am interested in adding an alternative fuel tank instead. In Phoenix, it is a growing market to convert your vehicle. I'm not looking to convert, just to expand my reserve tank so to speak using an alternative fuel. Besides, you get carpool lane priveleges and a nice tax break by complying.
Guess I'll contact one of the conversion companies directly.
I must be beating a dead horse. I give up.

[skyhammer]

I have a generatoe that runs on gasoline or propane. I gave up on propane because of reliability problems, ie. propane fuel lines ice up in cold weather, and propane reduces the kw. output.

[pagerdaddy]

Originally Posted by O'silent1

I must be beating a dead horse. I give up.

Don't give up! Be the trail blazer. After you do your research with those
companies, post a thread on what you find out and see if it generates any
interest. If you are able to get a conversion done, post pictures and docu-
ment any cost savings, performance changes, etc.

If the companies you contact say, "sorry, nothing is available for your truck,"
see if they could use yours for testing in exchange for a free system.

I bet a thread titled, "I smoked a hemi while running propane" would get
you lots of replies.

Steve

[tikigod]

Wouldnt gasoline and propane be your only options. Isnt there certian laws about transporting other fuels?

[smoketitan]

an extra gas tank seems pretty interesting in my opinion--but wouldn't it be extrmely expensive??

[Quad T]

I have never seen one of these extra gas tanks, but then again, maybe I have and I just did not realize it...

Based upon the fact tha they have models from 60 to 97 gallons, that sucker would not only extend your range, it might break your gas budget in one fill up...



Good luck witht he alternate fuel idea, eventually the truck makers will get there too.

[Austin]

A gasoline to propane conversion is possible, however it's not really practical.

Propane has more energy per pound than gasoline. Propane has about 20% less BTUs/gallon compared to Gasoline.

On paper, propane should make more power with a given air mass. Here's why:

Propane 21,591 BTUs/lb
Gasoline 18,400 BTUs/lb

Propane, stoich 15.7:1 AFR
Gasoline, stoich 14.7:1 AFR

21591/15.7=1375.223 BTUs/lb of stoich propane air:fuel mix
18400/14.7=1251.701 BTUs/lb of stoich gasoline air:fuel mix

1375.223/1251.701=1.099 or about 10% more power with propane from the same mass air flow of air.

This is, of course, assuming you have an engine optimized to run on propane (with a static compression ratio of at least 12:1). Simply squirting propane into your existing gasoline motor will result in a significant power loss. Comparing the price of propane to the price of 87 AKI ((MON + RON)/2) gasoline, you'll go much further per dollar on gasoline unless you have a very well tuned (for propane) engine.

To be cost efficient, it would need to be injected, not carbureted.

It's certainly possible, but I don't believe there are any "kits." To be successful, you'd not only need to be fairly adept at mechanical fabrication and adaptation, but you'd need a comprehensive knowlege of combustion engine operating characteristics, including ignition system programming (assuming EFI).

Anyway, those are some thoughts on it...

[Austin]

If you're simply interested in extending your cruising range, try looking for an aftermarket gas tank. There are companies that make replacement gas tanks, designed to fit in the same location as your oem tank. They are more efficient in space usage - they have squared off corners instead of round corners, usually extend into all the empty space possible to give a higher capacity fuel tank.

I doubt you'll find one yet, the truck hasn't even been out a year. Maybe in another 6 months or a year, you'll see 38-45 gallon oem replacement tanks available.

[O'silent1]

Wow! Thank you for that mathematical breakdown. I knew somebody in Titan land would have just that kind of information. Guess I wasn't patient enough to wait for it.
The big push for the propane system comes from my wife as she thinks we are burning enough gasoline as it is. Too bad hon, it just doesn't sound like it would be the most economically feasible thing to do. I like the toolbox/reserve tanks that mount in the bed but I don't want to be a rolling gas tank especially with my little boy sitting right in front of it on the other side of the wall. I really like the larger aftermarket tank that mounts underneath as you suggested. I will see if I can't find some companies that manufacture and get an estimated date of production for the Titan.
Thanks all. You've given me some new ideas and brought up some issues I need to do my homework on.

[ashleyandrus]

I'd be really interested ini the same idea... alternative fuel. Burning lots of gas is one of the main reasons why we haven't bought our titan yet... Let me know if you find out anything about a reality in alternative fueling...
thanks