2005 Titan Option Packages Messed Up

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by Titan4x4Aggie

you must also be pretty unhappy for me to tell you you have been misinformed.

i have BALS, and have no problem doing a burn out or kicking it lose around a corner since i DO NOT have VDC. if you didn't have BALS, you would only lay a single patch of rubber since one only tire would be spinning. BALS ensures that both tires spin, like a limited slip differential. it doesn't cut engine power.

wasn't this established on a post a LONG time ago?

sorry bud that brake differential reduces the power to the wheels when any or all of em are spinning. Yes i can spin the tires going around a corner (wait isnt that what this system is supposed to PREVENT?) but the truck will only spin the wheels on a straight line start for about 10 feet then the system kicks in (since wheels never spin at the same rate unless the differential itself locks) and shuts down the fun not allowing either wheel to spin - I also suspect that the computer is limiting torque in first gear. With 305 horsepower in a truck I should be able to roast em for damn near as long as i like.

[Titan4x4Aggie]

Originally Posted by richardminco

Boy of boy - College Station must still be boring and lacking insight Senior Aggie.

Nice lecture on driving skills and Nissan marketing. You miss many points and provide incorrect information, but that's OK.

1- Nissan offered the right combo in 04. VDC plus the air bag package. It's not that hard to figure out that many if not a majority of those who want an air bag package (e.g. families) are more interested in making the Titan safe ON ROAD vs. OFF ROAD. Combining the air bag package with off road on 4X$s is stupid. Not to mention the fact that you also must get nav,sunroof etc. too.

2- You say that VDC and YAW control are not the same. Well you are wrong. Look at the Continental Teeves web site where they describe their EDC systems which is EXACTLY the system Nissan markets under the name VDC. It says:
Electronic Stability Control - ESC

Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is a stability enhancement system designed to electronically detect and assist drivers in critical driving situations and under adverse conditions...automatically.

See Demonstration

ESC Yield Sign

During Understeer:

In an understeer situation, the front end of the car tends to slide out. ESC automatically applies the inside, rear brake to help you acheive your desired turn. It may also reduce the engine's power.

During Oversteer:

In an oversteer situation, the rear end of the car tends to slide out or "fishtail". ESC automatically applies the outside, front brake to help you correct "fishtailing".
ESP Oversteer Understeer

Advantages of ESC:

* ESC constantly compares the driver's intended course with the vehicle's actual course and compensates for any differences.
* ESC responds to help you drive safely whenever it senses impending wheel lock-up, wheel spin or loss of vehicle control.
* It helps improve traction, maneuverability and stability in all weather conditions.

ESC Assists During All Driving Situations:

* Braking
* Accelerating
* Cornering

Putting Technologies Together to Help You Control Your Vehicle:

* ABS Anti-lock Brake System
* TCS Traction Control System
* AYC Yaw Control Stability System

actually, i'm not in college station, as my "Location" tag under my avatar indicates. i'm running a 24 hour flight hardware acceptance test at NASA, and we were downloading 2+ hours of data, so i was killing time on titantalk.com

and i seriously wonder how the Titan's Big Tow Package ($900 value), can include all that above plus tranny cooler, temp guage, hitch and wiring, larger battery, etc.

mitsubishi intentionally left off active yaw control from the Evo VIII because it was a huge price upgrade ($2000+), if my memory stands correct.

i'm doubting the titan's VDC does everything the 5 acronyms above do. a computer that does that much would be as expensive as the main ECU, and since it's an add on, would probably cost a lot more, plus all the sensors you will need.

i'll believe nissas when they say VDC is the same as ESC when my rockford fosgate stereo system has at least one rockford fosgate component...

[Titan4x4Aggie]

Originally Posted by MadMax

sorry bud that brake differential reduces the power to the wheels when any or all of em are spinning. Yes i can spin the tires going around a corner (wait isnt that what this system is supposed to PREVENT?) but the truck will only spin the wheels on a straight line start for about 10 feet then the system kicks in (since wheels never spin at the same rate unless the differential itself locks) and shuts down the fun not allowing either wheel to spin - I also suspect that the computer is limiting torque in first gear. With 305 horsepower in a truck I should be able to roast em for damn near as long as i like.

i still think you're thinking of VDC, looks like i'll have to find it in the manual...

[MadMax]

well, i wish i was thinking of VDC cuz I dont have it heheh

[MadMax]

my take on what's going on on an attempted patch laying....

I take off hard, a wheel spins since it's an open differential before the computer kicks in, then the braking differential kicks in reducing power to the spinning wheel (NOT shifting power to the wheel that isnt spinning like a mechanical limited slip unit would); the final result: tire stops spinning because of braking force exerted on spinning wheel

[MadMax]

from what i've read on the abls - it works as a limited slip by applying BRAKING force to a wheel that is spinning until the rear wheels are spinning at the same rate.Thus the acronym ABLS: Active Brake Limited Slip A TRUE limited slip differential transfers POWER to both wheels allowing you to roast both tires.

[Bill_RK]

I will be disappointed if the air bag package is bundled like that. I went to 5 dealers here in NH who did inventory searches looking for any Titan with the Airbag package. They found none, so I was hoping to order a 2005 built to my specs.

I see ABS, traction control, VDC, etc, as safety equipment. Whenever I do something inherently dangerous, I use the proper safety equipment (motorcycling, shooting, welding, driving!). Every little bit helps IMO. To not use an effective piece of safety equipment just seems silly to me, no matter how safe or skilled you think you are.

But, it would be NICE if Nissan at least gave us all the CHOICE!

[ColoTitan]

Originally Posted by richardminco

I have a copy of the dealer option list with dependencies for the 05. This is not BS.

Could you post the dealer option list? Because I can't find it and when I was having my truck serviced I went and asked my sales person for it he said they have not received it yet. The only info that I could find is below:


• Crew Cab models have a standard power rear window with defroster
• Dampened tailgate assist on all Titan models
• Standard active head restraints for front driver and front passenger
• Brushed aluminum interior trim on LE models
• Spray-in bedliner available as stand-alone option on XE
• Leather bench seat available on LE
• New wheel finish for SE models
• New front door badging V8 TITAN
• New exterior color: Red Alert (replaces Sedona)
• New interior color: Steel (replaces Sand/Steel)

[Titan4x4Aggie]

Originally Posted by MadMax

my take on what's going on on an attempted patch laying....

I take off hard, a wheel spins since it's an open differential before the computer kicks in, then the braking differential kicks in reducing power to the spinning wheel (NOT shifting power to the wheel that isnt spinning like a mechanical limited slip unit would); the final result: tire stops spinning because of braking force exerted on spinning wheel

i will concede, i think we are both misinformed. Orange Crush just put up an excellent post about the computer systems in our truck: Nissan Titan 4wd System Explained

taking an excerpt from the post about ABLS:

"ABLS, applies brakes selectively to a slipping wheel. This braking action literally fools the differentials into sending power everywhere except the slipping wheel."

"When ABS wheel-speed sensors detect a loss of traction in one or more wheels, braking force is applied to that wheel to help slow it down. This redirects power to the wheels with better traction."

based on the above (and comparing to my prevoius experience driving mazda rx-7s with and without a cluth-type LSD), it seems ABLS does act like a true mechanical LSD. if a spinning wheel is locked up with the brake, the torque has to go somewhere, i.e the other wheel. i dont know how much torque is lost though from this action, though. need to do a FBD (free body diagram) to figure that one out.

you are right in saying that there is a rev limiter associated with the ABLS, although this is a separate traction control system. still, if i'm accelerating from a dead stop, i can break BOTH tires loose (i have semi-drifted this truck around a corner) in both straight accelerations and around a corner. they keep spinning until the TCS kicks in, which i slightly notice as a pause in power.

[Titan4x4Aggie]

Originally Posted by Bill_RK

But, it would be NICE if Nissan at least gave us all the CHOICE!

nissan can either give less individual options and charge less, or have a fully customizable truck and charge out the wazoo for a truck.

they either lose the picky customers or the cheap customers, and as a cheap customer, i'd rather nissan have fewer choices and get to pay less for an already awesome vehicle.

it's a matter of who to sell to: (girly men) or (governator)

[Quad T]

Originally Posted by Titan4x4Aggie

see, this is the miss information i was talking about. you obviously do not know how ABS works.

ABS allows the tires to maintain their maximum tractive forces (about 20% tire slip) by releasing brake pad force when the brakes lock up, an instintanious situation. ABS can pump the pedal much faster than a human, allowing the brakes to ride the lockup threshhold provide the tires with maximum traction by not locking up and slipping 100 %. maximum traction results in minimum stopping distances.

For most of what you say I agree, but when you posted the above reply to the quote below I have to point out one thing.

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Personally, I don't like ABS particularly, since it sacrifices braking distance to insure you stop straight.

ABS will in actuality cause a vehicle to stop in a greater distance on snow, and I suspect you don't have as much snow in Texas as we do up here in Upstate. In the winter I greatly prefer a vehicle without ABS so I can force the front tires to lock up. Skid release, skid release over and over and over is actually a good way to panic stop in snow.

Please know, I too like ABS and am glad it will be on the Titan, but ABS is not always best in all situations.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by Titan4x4Aggie

i will concede, i think we are both misinformed. Orange Crush just put up an excellent post about the computer systems in our truck: Nissan Titan 4wd System Explained

taking an excerpt from the post about ABLS:

"ABLS, applies brakes selectively to a slipping wheel. This braking action literally fools the differentials into sending power everywhere except the slipping wheel."

"When ABS wheel-speed sensors detect a loss of traction in one or more wheels, braking force is applied to that wheel to help slow it down. This redirects power to the wheels with better traction."

based on the above (and comparing to my prevoius experience driving mazda rx-7s with and without a cluth-type LSD), it seems ABLS does act like a true mechanical LSD. if a spinning wheel is locked up with the brake, the torque has to go somewhere, i.e the other wheel. i dont know how much torque is lost though from this action, though. need to do a FBD (free body diagram) to figure that one out.

you are right in saying that there is a rev limiter associated with the ABLS, although this is a separate traction control system. still, if i'm accelerating from a dead stop, i can break BOTH tires loose (i have semi-drifted this truck around a corner) in both straight accelerations and around a corner. they keep spinning until the TCS kicks in, which i slightly notice as a pause in power.

he just backed up my argument - the braking REDUCES power to the individual spinning wheel meaning it matches the wheel speed of the spinning wheel to that of the wheel that isnt spinning enabling both wheels to gain traction and eliminating wheel spin. a traditional limited slip doesnt decrease power to one wheel it distributes power to both wheels - the abls will work beneficially in all situations excepting when you want to spin both wheels - i do believe the system COULD be set up looser enabling wheel spin on both wheels but as Nissan has it set up in trucks it acts as a poor man's traction control. Maybe your truck has slightly different programming - I have read elsewhere in TitanTalk that the earlier release models 'feel' a bit more powerful and also tend to get better gas mileage - I dunno if they made any changes but there are variances between trucks for no easily apparent reason - Some people have trucks which will break loose and others don't - unfortunately for me - I fall into the category of trucks that dont break loose. Maybe I just got a dog - I cant hold 90 mph in 5th in gentle terrain easily either ......

[Austin]

Originally Posted by MadMax

he just backed up my argument - the braking REDUCES power to the individual spinning wheel meaning it matches the wheel speed of the spinning wheel to that of the wheel that isnt spinning enabling both wheels to gain traction and eliminating wheel spin. a traditional limited slip doesnt decrease power to one wheel it distributes power to both wheels - the abls will work beneficially in all situations excepting when you want to spin both wheels - i do believe the system COULD be set up looser enabling wheel spin on both wheels but as Nissan has it set up in trucks it acts as a poor man's traction control. Maybe your truck has slightly different programming - I have read elsewhere in TitanTalk that the earlier release models 'feel' a bit more powerful and also tend to get better gas mileage - I dunno if they made any changes but there are variances between trucks for no easily apparent reason - Some people have trucks which will break loose and others don't - unfortunately for me - I fall into the category of trucks that dont break loose. Maybe I just got a dog - I cant hold 90 mph in 5th in gentle terrain easily either ......

When talking differentials, it's important to not confuse torque distribution and power distribution.

The brake action ABLS uses to limit wheel spin does not, in any way, reduce power or torque to the spinning wheel.



Here is something I posted in an earlier thread:

To say it more precisely, an open differential will deliver equal amounts of torque to both sides.

This means it's important to understand torque - torque is a twisting or turning force.

For torque to be generated, there must be something to push against. If there is no resistance to turning a wheel, then very little torque is generated to turn the wheel - effectively none. With an open differential, the equal amount of torque is applied to the other wheel - effectively none.

That means that when one wheel leaves the ground or is in a zero traction situation, that wheel requires effectively zero torque to turn it. An open differential delivers exactly that amount of torque - effectively none - and it delivers that amount of torque to both sides.

Remember, to generate torque, there must be some resistance to turning or twisting.

Active Brake Limited Slip simply gives the open differential something to push against. When one wheel leaves the ground or is in a zero traction situation and begins to spin, ABLS will act to apply brake force to that wheel and that wheel only. To the open differential, this has the same effect as having traction with that wheel - there is now something to push against, allowing torque to be produced and delivered equally to both wheels.

Most reports of ABLS I've read indicate it works as designed. My truck's ABLS works just as designed, and it's the neatest thing since sliced bread. The driveability and low maintenance of an open differential with the traction of a limited slip differential. You get to have your cake and eat it, too.

That's how ABLS and open differentials work.



VDC is the system responsible for reducing engine output to limit wheelspin.

When you mash the gas and one rear wheel begins to spin (begins to lose traction), ABLS acts to apply brake force to that wheel - allowing the open differential to generate torque and be delivered equally to both wheels - giving torque back to the wheel with traction.

At this point, if both wheels spin and VDC is turned on, VDC will act to reduce engine output to reduce wheel spin. If VDC is turned off, you'll sit and spin both rear wheels.

[richardminco]

Continental Teves EDC = Titan VDC

CONTINENTAL SUPPLYING BRAKE AND CHASSIS SYSTEMS FOR NISSAN TITAN

AUBURN HILLS, Mich., February 3, 2003 - Continental Teves, a unit of Continental AG, is supplying advanced electronic brake and chassis technologies to Nissan for installation on the Titan, the company's new full-size pickup.

Continental Teves is supplying Nissan with Anti-lock Brake Systems (ABS), Traction Control Systems (TCS), Continental's electronic stability control system which Nissan markets as Vehicle Dynamic Control (VDC), and active boosters.

"We are pleased to partner with Nissan on this exciting vehicle," said Bill Kozyra, president, Continental Teves North America. "This business speaks to our ability to provide components that manage vehicle dynamics and enhance stability, and is a testimony to our technology leadership and engineering excellence."

Continental will supply Nissan with the electronic brake system components from its award-winning plant in Morganton, N.C. The actuation boosters will be manufactured at the company's facility in Asheville, N.C.

Continental Teves, headquartered in Frankfurt/Main Germany, is a unit of Continental AG, Hanover, Germany. With 2001 sales of approximately $10 billion (US), the Continental Corporation is a major supplier of brake systems, chassis components, vehicle electronics, tires and technical rubber products. Continental Teves' North American operation is headquartered in Auburn Hills, Mich.

For more information visit us at ttp://www.contitevesna.com/index2.htm

# # #
CONTACT: Jim Gill, M.S., APR
(248) 393-5210
(248) 882-6309 (cell)
jim.gill@usa.contiteves.com

[Titan4x4Aggie]

Originally Posted by Austin

When talking differentials, it's important to not confuse torque distribution and power distribution.

The brake action ABLS uses to limit wheel spin does not, in any way, reduce power or torque to the spinning wheel.



Here is something I posted in an earlier thread:

To say it more precisely, an open differential will deliver equal amounts of torque to both sides.

This means it's important to understand torque - torque is a twisting or turning force.

For torque to be generated, there must be something to push against. If there is no resistance to turning a wheel, then very little torque is generated to turn the wheel - effectively none. With an open differential, the equal amount of torque is applied to the other wheel - effectively none.

That means that when one wheel leaves the ground or is in a zero traction situation, that wheel requires effectively zero torque to turn it. An open differential delivers exactly that amount of torque - effectively none - and it delivers that amount of torque to both sides.

Remember, to generate torque, there must be some resistance to turning or twisting.

Active Brake Limited Slip simply gives the open differential something to push against. When one wheel leaves the ground or is in a zero traction situation and begins to spin, ABLS will act to apply brake force to that wheel and that wheel only. To the open differential, this has the same effect as having traction with that wheel - there is now something to push against, allowing torque to be produced and delivered equally to both wheels.

Most reports of ABLS I've read indicate it works as designed. My truck's ABLS works just as designed, and it's the neatest thing since sliced bread. The driveability and low maintenance of an open differential with the traction of a limited slip differential. You get to have your cake and eat it, too.

That's how ABLS and open differentials work.



VDC is the system responsible for reducing engine output to limit wheelspin.

When you mash the gas and one rear wheel begins to spin (begins to lose traction), ABLS acts to apply brake force to that wheel - allowing the open differential to generate torque and be delivered equally to both wheels - giving torque back to the wheel with traction.

At this point, if both wheels spin and VDC is turned on, VDC will act to reduce engine output to reduce wheel spin. If VDC is turned off, you'll sit and spin both rear wheels.

awesome post. and this goes to show that you can spin both wheels because ABLS only transfers power between the rear wheels, meaning if both rear wheels break loose and are spinning at the same speed, then you can lay a nice set of dual marks...until the traction control kicks in.