Detroit Locker, ARB air locker, Easton e-locker

[pluckyew]

Originally Posted by OnebadSE

You either have a LOCKER, which you select when you want it locked, or an LSD....which most certainly DOES lock both rear wheels together when one slips a certain percentage of the opposing wheel. Different companies have a different percentage of slip before locking but the do lock. You'll have to explain just what an auto-locker is. I've never heard of such a thing. If its unlocked then locks by itself when one wheel slips, it's a Limited Slip, not a locker.

LSD (limited slip diferential, a "compromise),
switching lockers such as the Eaton E-locker or the ARB Lockers, then there is an "automatic" mechanical locker, the Detroit Locker,
...if i have my facts straight

[OnebadSE]

Originally Posted by pluckyew

LSD (limited slip diferential, a "compromise),
switching lockers such as the Easton E-locker or the ARB Lockers, then there is an "automatic" mechanical locker, the Detroit Locker,
...if i have my facts straight

I'm looking for more info on them and am having no luck. ARB makes a switchable locker as does Detroit Locker. I don't know of Easton. But if they are claiming the words AUTOMATIC locker, they're just Limited Slip Diffs. They'd have to be, otherwise they'd be locked all the time. They have to sense wheelspin in order to lock. Hence the name limited slip. They may allow for a much lower percentage of slip so it will lock sooner (Nissans LSDs aren't know to be that great which is why the ABLS works better IMHO) but it would still have to fall under the name LSD.

[Sammy Sandbag]

Originally Posted by OnebadSE

I'm looking for more info on them and am having no luck. ARB makes a switchable locker as does Detroit Locker. I don't know of Easton. But if they are claiming the words AUTOMATIC locker, they're just Limited Slip Diffs. They'd have to be, otherwise they'd be locked all the time. They have to sense wheelspin in order to lock. Hence the name limited slip. They may allow for a much lower percentage of slip so it will lock sooner (Nissans LSDs aren't know to be that great which is why the ABLS works better IMHO) but it would still have to fall under the name LSD.

It's EATON, not Easton, that's probably why you've never heard of it. Once again, automatic lockers are not LSDs, two different items. Detroit lockers (except for their new electric locker) are automatic lockers, there are also other brands that offer essentially the same thing, like Lock Right. Many auto lockers use gears (or teeth) to never allow an axle to turn slower than the ring, therefore your axles (and tires) will always turn that speed or faster, so all wheels are rotating the same direction. There are new "gear-less" models out now, as well as others that don't have the jerking and noise associated with the traditional locker. Detroit's selectable locker is electrically engaged, and also has a LSD within the carrier for when it isn't locked. Selectable lockers work by locking the axles to the carrier, so both axles rotate the same speed as the ring, all the time (so it won't rotate faster on the outside wheel during a turn, unlike an auto-locker that allows this.) I believe you are getting an automatic locker confused with a Torsen LSD. But if you still don't believe me, do a google search for yourself.

[OnebadSE]

Originally Posted by sammy sandbag

It's EATON, not Easton, that's probably why you've never heard of it. Once again, automatic lockers are not LSDs, two different items. Detroit lockers (except for their new electric locker) are automatic lockers, there are also other brands that offer essentially the same thing, like Lock Right. Many auto lockers use gears (or teeth) to never allow an axle to turn slower than the ring, therefore your axles (and tires) will always turn that speed or faster, so all wheels are rotating the same direction. There are new "gear-less" models out now, as well as others that don't have the jerking and noise associated with the traditional locker. Detroit's selectable locker is electrically engaged, and also has a LSD within the carrier for when it isn't locked. Selectable lockers work by locking the axles to the carrier, so both axles rotate the same speed as the ring, all the time (so it won't rotate faster on the outside wheel during a turn, unlike an auto-locker that allows this.) I believe you are getting an automatic locker confused with a Torsen LSD. But if you still don't believe me, do a google search for yourself.

Sorry I wrote EASTON rather than Eaton (look at the thread heading). I know the company well, but I still haven't heard of an AUTO-LOCKER that wasn't controlled by LIMITED SLIP. I guess I will do more searching.

[OnebadSE]

Alrighty, now show me what you're talking about...educate me if you will. I just did a handful of searches under AUTO-LOCKER. I found a bunch using that name and a few new "gearless" models too. ARB (user selected only), Eaton, Detroit, Easy Locker and Lock-Right. The gearless ones in fact use a clutch-pack....LIMITED SLIP. All the others claim SOME sort of LIMITED SLIP abilities whether it be clutchpacks or pinion gears. Relax now, lol, I'm not arguing. I sincerely want to find out more about these "auto-lockers" if you can help. I've been off-roading for MANY MANY years and apparently up to now, you either had an open diff, an LSD or some sort of Locker that was user switched. There are many different types of LSDs. To me, and everything I've read sofar, anything acting as an open differential, that locks after allowing some slippage is in fact a LIMITED SLIP. If there is something else out there, clue me in. Thanks!

[Sammy Sandbag]

I think you are classifying many differentials that are actually automatic lockers as LSDs, which they all aren't. Often a automatic locker will contain a spiral spring labeled as a clutch pack, but it isn't the same as a clutch pack in a LSD. A traditional auto locker would use two sets of interlocking grooved discs that lock up. An LSD, as it's name implies, allows for slip between the two axles, they are not "locked". Torque is transfered between the two, or biased, which works well for on road purposes were the traction differences between the wheels isn't that great. An auto locker allows zero slippage, because as the name implies, the axles are locked together except that one may rotate faster than the ring gear for turning. If you have been off-roading for many many years, surely you have heard of a Detroit Locker, probably the best known name in differential traction aids. They are famous because of their automatic locker. User selectable lockers (ARB, Detroit Eletrac, Ox) are basically selectable spools, where there is no speed differential between the two axles whenever it is engaged.

http://www.bc4x4.com/faqs/yj.cfm?cat=7&faqid=156
http://www.pps.net.au/4wdencounter/a...difflocks.html
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techart...43/index4.html
http://www.tractech.com/Products.htm

[OnebadSE]

Thanks for the info Sammy.

[OnebadSE]

In reading through those sites it's obvious to me this is all a play on words, or names in this case. They can call it what they like lol. If it is at all allowed to SLIP for whatever reason, its a type of limited slip. Lockers lock only when switched on to do so. And yes, there are LSDs that actually lock (POSI TRACTION comes to mind). I understand your point and I may even be totally wrong in this but, thats my old school train of thought. lockers are either locked all the time (extreme offroad trailered vehicles) or switched to lock by the user when needed. Anything that locks or transfers power to the wheel with traction is a LIMITED SLIP. One design may work better and/or differently than another but its all the same crapola!

[Sammy Sandbag]

I think you'd find 100% of the industry refers to them as I have, just trying to save you face should you start calling items by the wrong name. There's no real play on words as they are different products that perform differently, while they in effect help to accomplish the same thing; improved traction. Automatic lockers have been around far longer than selectable lockers have been. Lockers that are locked all the time are in effect spools, which wouldn't be called lockers at all. A poor man's spool would be welded spider gears. A limited slip still allows either axle to "slip" a certain amount and turn slower than the ring gear, where as an automatic locker never allows this. There's no if ands or buts about it, pretty cut and dry. But if you still don't believe me (and all the sites I linked to) then maybe you should pick up a 4 wheel and off-road or JP, or maybe write an email to Tractech (the maker of the Detroit locker.)

[NorCal 4x4]

Originally Posted by sammy sandbag

I think you are classifying many differentials that are actually automatic lockers as LSDs, which they all aren't. Often a automatic locker will contain a spiral spring labeled as a clutch pack, but it isn't the same as a clutch pack in a LSD. A traditional auto locker would use two sets of interlocking grooved discs that lock up. An LSD, as it's name implies, allows for slip between the two axles, they are not "locked". Torque is transfered between the two, or biased, which works well for on road purposes were the traction differences between the wheels isn't that great. An auto locker allows zero slippage, because as the name implies, the axles are locked together except that one may rotate faster than the ring gear for turning. If you have been off-roading for many many years, surely you have heard of a Detroit Locker, probably the best known name in differential traction aids. They are famous because of their automatic locker. User selectable lockers (ARB, Detroit Eletrac, Ox) are basically selectable spools, where there is no speed differential between the two axles whenever it is engaged.

http://www.bc4x4.com/faqs/yj.cfm?cat=7&faqid=156
http://www.pps.net.au/4wdencounter/a...difflocks.html
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techart...43/index4.html
http://www.tractech.com/Products.htm

Hey Sammy, thank you for your explanation, and the links! I think the first two articles give an excellent description of the various options and differences, their applications, and have clarified the differences, for me anyway.

I get the impression after reading about LSD, that we are much better off having the ABLS instead. For example in the article of your second link, " ...as soon as there is a large difference in traction ie. one wheel off the ground, there is no way a LSD will have any beneficial effect."

BTW, the company producing the E-LOCK® for Dana, and Nissan, (for the Titan), is Tochiji-Fujii. Below is a link to an article, mostly about the joint effort Nissan w/Dana, 205 front axle design, but also mentions that Tochiji-Fujii will provide the electronic locking rear differential to Dana. Would have been nice if they had added the E-LOCK® to the front too, (w/separate control switches).
Automotive Industries - "Making Titan Tougher"

[Sammy Sandbag]

Well an LSD is probably more benificial for a street machine, where both tires remain planted on the pavement. The ABLS has the advantage whenever a wheel becomes airborne or loses all traction. I don't think you'll see any type of locker in the front end of a truck any time soon. As someone mentioned earlier, you have too many people who don't understand the use and limits, and would be lined up at dealerships across the country wondering why they have snapped front-end parts. A independent front end setup can't take the amount of punishment that a locker and 300+ hp engine are capable of dishing out, especially when people would attempt to use them on high traction surfaces while turning. Right now the only vehicle equipped with a front diff locker is the Jeep Rubicon, and it's electronically controlled just like the Titan's rear locker is, limited to 10mph. And personally I don't see the need for one either. The Titan is a big truck, and I wouldn't recommend ever getting it into the type of off-road situation where you'd ever need a front end locker.

BTW, Tochigi Fuji Sanjyo also manufacturers the lockers for the Jeep Rubicon, they are pneumatically actuated however.

[NorCal 4x4]

Near the end of the article of your second link the author states:
"which is the best place to fit a single diff lock, front or rear? This is actually a loaded question as it depends on the type of terrain and your vehicle type, but in a nutshell I believe the front is the best place. This is especially so for independent front suspension vehicles which easily lift a wheel even on modest terrain. Additionally, most vehicles these days already have a rear LSD so why fit a locker to the rear and leave the front diff open? Its a better option to fit the locker to the front and leave the LSD in place. When the vehicle has open diffs back and front there are still advantages for a front fitment. When in sand or mud the fitting of a locker to the front will have a greater effect. If hill climbs are your main speciality then a rear fitment may be a better choice as there is a significant weight transfer to the rear axle when going uphill. However if the hillclimb requires large rocks, gullies or shelves to be driven over, then a front locker will drive over the obstacle rather than being pushed up it from behind."
I realize the aurthor might not be right, and I realize this isn't a jeep, but having the option, while in 4LO to lock the front and/or the rear would add versatility. And speed could be limited while engaged. And it does sound like our front end is pretty tough, (from the article I linked to).

So do you disagree about the front lock better than the rear for sand etc.?

[Sammy Sandbag]

I was speaking strickly about the Titan, and I noted it was my personal opinion that I don't feel it necissary for a full size Truck, especially an IFS "new" type of truck. As that author mentioned, it depends on your terrain you plan to cover. If I were building a trail rig right now, it'd definately have a user-selectable locker up front, as well as some sort of traction aid in the rear (either automtic-locker or user selectable.) But that's a trail rig, not my everyday hauler, the Titan. I'm sure the Titan's front end is beefy, as far as IFS's go, but that's still pretty weak compared to a SFA setup. Like I said earlier, I don't see why you'd ever want or happen to get your Titan into a situation where a front locker is needed. If you already have the E-locker or ABLS, you should be covered well. My last 4x4 had open diffs front and rear and I rarely got stuck even on the nastiest mud holes (ground clearance was the usual constraining factor.) Regardless of any of this, I seriously doubt you'll ever see a user selectable locker for the front end of the Titan, but who knows. There are a few out there, ARB makes them for the H2, Jeep Liberty, F-150 (with 8.8" RG), all the IZUZUs and Mitsubishi and Toyotas.

[OnebadSE]

Very true. I doubt I'll even use the E-LOCK I have but it's nice to know I have it just in case. Speaking about the IFS, you'll notive that even the big Ford F-350s are changing over to it. Can't be as weak as people think. What do you think?

[Sammy Sandbag]

I haven't heard that, as the 2005 Super Duty's and Dodge 2500's are still SFA, and they just redesigned the front end of the Fords with a 5-link coil suspension so I'd be suprised if they convert over to IFS. If you have a link to that I'd be interested. But you're talking about a vehicle designed for tow. The majority of the stress is placed on the rear end components. But for the Chevy 3/4 and 1 ton IFS trucks, it is a much beefier system then what you'll see on the front end of the 1/4 ton. I'm a bit dissappointed that Jeep has gone to IFS on the new Grand Cherokee, leaving the Wrangler as the only front and rear live axle in the line up. Solid axles will still out last an independent suspension when put to the test, not to mention they are easier to maintain, lift, repair, and better off road performance. Independent suspension's only benefit is improved handling, and perhaps a better ride.