Warped brake rotors: the myth

racer01 · 01-10-2005, 06:45 PM

There seems to be alot of misunderstandings going around lately regarding "warped rotors" and other brake issues. I have done alot of brake research in the last few years, mostly from racing a few cars with inadequate braking systems. Below is and article that explains the myth behind "warped" rotors written by the experts at Stoptech
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm
I have 10k miles on my '04 Titan with no brake issues at all. It is used for daily driving and towing a racecar, but I follow bed in procedures similar to what is suggested by Stoptech, and make a conscious effort to drive in a mannor to prevent uneven pad depositon (read the article). My guess is that most of the problems that are manifested as "brake judder" are indeed caused by uneven deposition of brake pad material onto the rotors. The root cause seems to be high temperatures associated with inadequaty sized rotors, with uneven pad deposits coming from things such as leaving your foot on the pedal after coming to a hard stop (read the article)

Understanding the reasons behind brake judder or "warped rotors" is important. Adjusting your driving style and possibly finding a better aftermarket pad seems to be the only fix at this point. Hopefully Nissan will step up on the issue.

QWIKWHIP · 01-10-2005, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer01

There seems to be alot of misunderstandings going around lately regarding "warped rotors" and other brake issues. I have done alot of brake research in the last few years, mostly from racing a few cars with inadequate braking systems. Below is and article that explains the myth behind "warped" rotors written by the experts at Stoptech
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm
I have 10k miles on my '04 Titan with no brake issues at all. It is used for daily driving and towing a racecar, but I follow bed in procedures similar to what is suggested by Stoptech, and make a conscious effort to drive in a mannor to prevent uneven pad depositon (read the article). My guess is that most of the problems that are manifested as "brake judder" are indeed caused by uneven deposition of brake pad material onto the rotors. The root cause seems to be high temperatures associated with inadequaty sized rotors, with uneven pad deposits coming from things such as leaving your foot on the pedal after coming to a hard stop (read the article)

Understanding the reasons behind brake judder or "warped rotors" is important. Adjusting your driving style and possibly finding a better aftermarket pad seems to be the only fix at this point. Hopefully Nissan will step up on the issue.

I don't even have to read that, I've read it before.

This is a good post. I am willing to bet that Nissan's fix for the brake problem will be a thicker, more ventilated rotor, new calipers to fit the thicker rotor, and a different pad that will leave less deposits. I'll bet they will perform no different, just be less prone to deposits, aka "warping"

casique · 01-10-2005, 07:16 PM

I have owned many cars, trucks, SUV and motorcycles and I have never had brake problems until I bought a Titan! So driving style is out the window for me. Try again!

SeanTitan · 01-10-2005, 07:30 PM

In 22 years of driving cars and motorcycles that I have abused I have never had an issue with rotors. My driving style has changed for the better and I no longer beat the hell out of my bikes and trucks. The Titan has a design flaw and Nissn needs to step up and fix it.

D-Love · 01-10-2005, 07:30 PM

I have to agree w/ casique....

This is the heaviest auto I've owned w/ the exception of my 73 Delta 88. The Olds did not have brake issues & I drove it way harder than my Titan. The brakes should be on the overkill side especially w/ the claims for tow/hauling capacity.
Never heard of so many people having brake issues. I've been driving 14 years, and should not have to read up on how to brake properly to keep my steering wheel from shaking like crazy under normal stopping conditions.

While I'm sure you can drive way chill to prolong this from happening, you should not have to. With all this torque and HP, we should be able to drive the sh?t out of this truck.

Sorry to ramble....

racer01 · 01-10-2005, 07:42 PM

I am not saying that the Titan does not have a significant problem regarding brakes sizing/pad material. My post was to illustrate the cause of "warped" brakes, and why it happens. We can all sit around complaining and hoping for nissan to issue a mass recall, or attempt to learn what the cause is for the brake problems, and then work on fixing the problem area(s). I for one think that a quality aftermarket pad designed to work at a slightly higher temperature range (ie Hawk HP superduty) would probably fix the brake issues for most of us.

D-Love · 01-10-2005, 07:51 PM

My dealer, along w/ a couple others are indicating bigger rotors and other parts are coming first quarter of 05. Let's hope so.

I agree with you as well, racer01. TT can become a bit negative...
With the exception of the brake issue, I love the truck! Love love love it.
Even if Nissan did nothing with the brakes, I'd keep the truck and buy some sweet aftermarket stopping devices.

Happy happy joy joy.

casique · 01-10-2005, 07:53 PM

Well like many other guys on this forum, I'm going to wait for a fix. I'm willing to wait short of 12 months. I'm in the service and will move in a year, towing some of my household and motorcycle. After that, if I still own the truck, I'll go aftermarket and hopefully solve the problem. If I get upset enough with Nissan, I'll buy a Tundra!

*calgary_redneck* · 01-10-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer01

I am not saying that the Titan does not have a significant problem regarding brakes sizing/pad material. My post was to illustrate the cause of "warped" brakes, and why it happens. We can all sit around complaining and hoping for nissan to issue a mass recall, or attempt to learn what the cause is for the brake problems, and then work on fixing the problem area(s). I for one think that a quality aftermarket pad designed to work at a slightly higher temperature range (ie Hawk HP superduty) would probably fix the brake issues for most of us.

You sound like a commersial for Hawk, I my self have don't have to much faith in the aftermarket companies and find they rarely take into consiteration all the design peramiters of the original piece. This is not hard to understand when you consiter the limited resources that they have to work with compaired to the automaker. The artical which you show has been spashed around on here many times and although probably contains some truth I would not take it as gosbel especially seeing how it disagree's which what is taught elsewhere

Gearman1987 · 01-10-2005, 08:12 PM

Driving style my arse - may sound good to some - but I go through cars & trucks like some people go through under pants- I drive about 35,ooo miles a year 50/50 city & highway - I've never had another truck or car go through 3 sets of rotors in 22,000 miles like my Titan did. Bottom line - I think Nissan hasn't addressed the problem fast enough - and htat's too bad for a company that typically builds great vehicles. My 2001 Pathfinder has been flawless & my wife just turned 75,000 miles on it.

racer01 · 01-10-2005, 09:21 PM

You guys make me feel like I should apologize to the Titan community for posting some technical data as to why our brakes are having some issues, and suggesting how to fix it. Believe me, the Titan is not the first or the last production vehicle to have the same issues with "warped" brake rotors. Barring a mass recall of all titans to replace the original parts, you really better learn to live with it, or learn how to fix it.
Although I am active in several other car forums for the other cars I own, I havn't posted here in my 7 months of Titan ownership because of the overwhelming negativity of this site in general. Surprising to me, given the fact that the Titan is really quite a good truck overall.

TallTexan · 01-10-2005, 09:36 PM

88 Chevy Blazer 4x4: Replaced rotors once and turned rotors and replaced pads 2 times. 91 Ford Explorer 4x4: Replaced rotors one time, turned rotors three times with new pads. 95 Chevy Suburban 4x2. No rotor replacement but turned rotors twice. Next time would be to replace rotors. 98 Pontiac GranPrix: Turned rotors twice, last time I replaced the rotors at 75,000 miles. 04 Titan: Turned rotors once, new rotors added last time. About 4 thousand miles on them and so far all is good. Moral to the story, brakes and rotors wear out, all vehicles. Some sooner , some later. Titans rotors warped too early. Rotors do warp, some build up on them, maybe, but they warp. If all was build up then you could maching the deposits off the rotors and still retain the total thickness of the rotors. I have watched the machining many times. You cut steel until you true the face up. This disagreement about warping has been hashed out on these forums before and God knows I dont want to do it again. The fix is on the way, Nissan is going to solve our problem. Might take a few months, but I have seen the promise land. New rotors, pads, and calipers. I will just get in line and wait.

Titan Power · 01-10-2005, 11:28 PM

I used to think 99% of "warped" rotors were cause by the owners. From parking a car with hot brakes, washing cars with hot brakes and spraying water on them, etc. I've never had problem with warped rotors on any of my cars, and I've done a fair share of autocrossing and open-tracking in heavy, powerful, relatively underbraked cars. I keep wheel chocks in the cars I race so I don't have to set the parking brake when the brakes are hot. If I come to a hard stop on the street, I stop a little short, and creep slowly towards the red light.

Now my Titan is having it's second bout with brake problems in 7500 miles. While I realize it is a heavy vehicle, it's driven very easily, especially compared to my other cars.

Based on my truck, I think the problem is due to sticking calipers. Before the first problem, I've noticed that brake dust was forming much more quickly and heavily on one side. After the first "fix", it was better, but now the judder is back, as is the heavy dusting on one side. The dealer also suspects this to be the problem, and is replacing the caliper guide pins. We'll see how that goes.

One of my other cars had a similar problem. It was a '90 Eagle Talon AWD, which came with too small of brakes from the factory. They finaly upgraded the brakes in '93, but didn't retrofit any of the older cars. If there is a bigger brake kit in the works, we need to make so much noise that Nissan will realize it's cheaper to just upgrade the brakes rather then to continuosly "fix" them. Hopefully they see that already and that is where they are headed.

Jason K.

Tom Roper · 01-11-2005, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer01

Barring a mass recall of all titans to replace the original parts, you really better learn to live with it, or learn how to fix it.
Although I am active in several other car forums for the other cars I own, I havn't posted here in my 7 months of Titan ownership because of the overwhelming negativity of this site in general. Surprising to me, given the fact that the Titan is really quite a good truck overall.

1st..I'll go for mass recall over learning to live with it.

2nd.. Brakes are the #1 most important fundamental on any vehicle.

racer01 · 01-11-2005, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallTexan

Rotors do warp, some build up on them, maybe, but they warp. If all was build up then you could maching the deposits off the rotors and still retain the total thickness of the rotors. I have watched the machining many times. You cut steel until you true the face up.

You didn't read the article

"The trouble with this procedure is that if the grinding does not remove all of the cementite inclusions, as the disc wears the hard cementite will stand proud of the relatively soft disc and the thermal spiral starts over again. Unfortunately, the cementite is invisible to the naked eye."

Cementite is formed as the uneven pad deposits become hot spots on the disc, and elevated temps cause the cast iron to turn to cementite. The longer you drive on "warped" rotors, the deeper the cementite inclusions go into the face of the rotor.

This indeed is not 99% the drivers fault. In our case, the braking system is inadequate in a way that allows pad material to become unevenly transferred, weather that be due to sticking calipers, undersized or poor metalurgy in the stock rotors, and/or pad material that is not suited for the job of stopping a 5300lb/305hp truck.

I hope rumors of Nissan stepping up to recall and add better components is true. I agree brakes are the #1 fundamental...thats why if Nissan doesn't fix the problem, I will fix it myself.