Titan Frame Question

kvoman · 01-25-2005, 11:46 AM

Don't flame me for asking this question but...

I was looking at an F-150 last night as a comparison with the Titan and the salesperson told me that the F-150 frame is hydroformed, etc. to make it stronger and the Titan is not.

Does anyone know anything about this issue and is it a big deal?

Zardoz · 01-25-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvoman

Don't flame me for asking this question but...

I was looking at an F-150 last night as a comparison with the Titan and the salesperson told me that the F-150 frame is hydroformed, etc. to make it stronger and the Titan is not.

Does anyone know anything about this issue and is it a big deal?

Titan is a fully boxed frame don't worry about it. Nissan frames are very
tough. Frontier and Hardbody pickups were fully boxed frames also. Hydroformed is a method to make a frame and has nothing to do with the
strength of a frame. It might be a more accurate frame but the design
and the quality of materials has more of an impact on a frame that how
the frame is made. Nothing wrong with the Titan frame.

Zardoz

bluesun · 01-25-2005, 12:51 PM

Apparently GM had to replace some early trucks with hydro formed frames as tying them to the railroad car bent the frames. Basically, hydro forming actually allows you to use a thinner frame, if everything works right. What about the frame rails of the new f250? Anyway, Ford probably does have a tougher frame, but is it really needed? That extra 500 pounds on the ford had to go somewhere....

logicjunky · 01-25-2005, 12:59 PM

Titan's frame rates out as an industry first in design I believe. I would guess crash test ratings are an easy way to judge frame strength, but the Titan is as tough if not tougher in frame design.

Zardoz is correct, hydroforming is a steel manufacturing method still realitively new to the automotive market. Here's a great article about it: http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090302.html

Here is the section about the Titan's box frame:

"Framed
If anything, trucks must be sturdy. Durable. A body-on-frame with a solid, serious frame. As Hideo Aimoto, Frame and Platform Design Manager, Nissan Technical Center Truck Platform Planning, explains, while bending stiffness is important, torisonal stiffness is particularly key vis-à-vis such aspects as NVH, ride, comfort and handling. So, looking at frame rails, there is a choice between C-section and boxed section. And making a comparison between two sections (for comparative purposes only) that are 180-mm high and 60-mm wide, the torsional stiffness of a boxed section is 300 times that of the baseline C-section. To be sure, there is greater weight to the boxed section—but only 6% more. It isn’t hard to conclude that they went with the boxed for the Titan."

They mention that Nissan does hydroforming on the Altima and Infiniti G35 and why they didn't go with hydroforming on the Titan too.

"According to Larry Dominique, there were a few reasons why they opted not to go with hydroforming for the Titan, including the fact that the corner radii are larger than can be achieved via stamping, and it is more difficult to make attachments to the hydroformed components."

Happy reading, it's a pretty good article actually.

ColoTitan · 01-25-2005, 01:35 PM

They are both boxed and laddered fames so they will have the same about the same strength. How they form the outside of the frame is really irrelevant.

abmobil · 01-25-2005, 01:46 PM

A guy at our local nssan dealer told me when the titan came out they had a f150 and a titan pull onto the curb on the lot and the f150s door wouldnt close due to frame flex but the titan closed just fine.
Although we know the titan is a beter truck i find it a little hard to believe.

kvoman · 01-25-2005, 03:53 PM

Great information guys, I appreciate that. Almost bought one over the weekend. The deal was contigent on me selling my car, the buyer for my car never showed up or call!!!

The Titan (Deep Water Blue) has everything I wanted for $31,057 + tax (after the $1000 rebate for '05): Off-Road package, Tow Package, SE Convenience Package with Power Captain seats, and Utility Bed Package!!!

Oh well, one of these days.

logicjunky · 01-25-2005, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoTitan

They are both boxed and laddered frames so they will have the same about the same strength. How they form the outside of the frame is really irrelevant.

Not true, read the article.

"According to Larry Dominique, there were a few reasons why they opted not to go with hydroforming for the Titan, including the fact that the corner radii are larger than can be achieved via stamping, and it is more difficult to make attachments to the hydroformed components."

Armada · 01-25-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm not a fan of hydroformed frames. Go over to Ford Truck Enthusiast Forum (be nice, I own a Ford too and post over there), and check all the '04-'05 F-150 threads over there about the "VIBRATION" problems they are having with the new trucks. Many think it is due to that frame. Ford has not fixed it yet and does not seem to know what the problem is.

Our trucks are fully boxed and laddered and should be very stout. I would not worry about the frame on a truck that beat every Ford, Chevy and Dodge in the SCORE Baja 1000 stock truck class back in November (finished second to an H-1 Hummer).

1000 miles of that kind of off-road abuse is more than our trucks will ever be exposed to in two lifetimes.

TitanHauler · 01-25-2005, 05:09 PM

I also find it fascinating that in light of this information FORD still touts their frame as superior to the Titan. Check out the FORD website under the F150 and watch the videos where they compare varies components of the F150 to the Ram, Silverado, Titan, and even Tundra. They even cut a section of the frame rail out of each truck and compare them side by side.http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/

Zardoz · 01-25-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitanHauler

I also find it fascinating that in light of this information FORD still touts their frame as superior to the Titan. Check out the FORD website under the F150 and watch the videos where they compare varies components of the F150 to the Ram, Silverado, Titan, and even Tundra. They even cut a section of the frame rail out of each truck and compare them side by side.http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/

No they don't, they skip the Titan in the frame comparison because it is
a fully boxed frame. Ford should be ashamed doing crud like this.

Zardoz

ColoTitan · 01-25-2005, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logicjunky

Not true, read the article.

"According to Larry Dominique, there were a few reasons why they opted not to go with hydroforming for the Titan, including the fact that the corner radii are larger than can be achieved via stamping, and it is more difficult to make attachments to the hydroformed components."

My point was that the structural integrity of the frame is about the same if they use ether stamped or hydroformed, especially when boxed afterwards.

The gauge of the metal has more to do with strength than how the outside of the frame is formed.

logicjunky · 01-25-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoTitan

My point was that the structural integrity of the frame is about the same if they use ether stamped or hydroformed, especially when boxed afterwards.

The gauge of the metal has more to do with strength than how the outside of the frame is formed.

Ah, I see...I was focusing on the difficulties in attaching to a hydroformed frame. We weren't even close to each other, haha...

Boone-Titan · 01-25-2005, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoTitan

My point was that the structural integrity of the frame is about the same if they use ether stamped or hydroformed, especially when boxed afterwards.

The gauge of the metal has more to do with strength than how the outside of the frame is formed.

I disagree.
The Hydroforming process involves takes a steel tube (imagine a pipe) encapsulating it in a closed die then applying a very high and rapid fluid pressure pulse to the pipe using water. This is like sending an explosive charge down the pipe causing it to explode outward to fill the cavity of the die. This results in a very accurate and repeatable shape unproducable by any other process. The downsides are that the material can stretch in a non-uniform manner producing thin spots and the shape is limited to larger radii since the material can not be stretched into a sharp corner without ripping (yielding). A frame needs to be torsionally strong to resist twisting. The cross sectional shape of the frame rail is far more important than the gauge of metal used. A box xsection is very good but the shape of that box including the size of the corner radii dictate the strength. With all things equal except shape, which is torsionally stronger? A rectangle with reasonable corner radii or an oval racetrack shape ? My vote is for the rectangle.