Ford to introduce F-150 with diesel engine by 2009

[jmeyer]

Originally Posted by Waterfowler

You are kinda looking at it like you aren't going to recoup the extra cost when you sell it or trade it in. Not to mention that diesels have better resale value than gas engines because diesels tend be just be getting broken in by the time a gas engine takes a downward spiral.

And a $.37 price difference between gas and diesel? Is that the national average? Last time I paid attention it was only like $.15 here in Cali.

If you think about recouping the diesel cost, it's all relative, you already bought and paid for the diesel, you should get a better return at the end.

As for the fuel cost, I used the prices I saw today driving home. Pittsburgh, PA. Diesel doesn't drop that much here later in the year due to home heating oil prices.

[MississippiTitan]

I like the idea of it. Thats what I always wanted. If youve a diesel its hard to go back to gas I promise I miss my diesel although it is higher than gas right now.

[mudslinggintitan04]

idk where u get ur info from hudsonvalley, but i always heard that diesels pollute less than gas, and are gonna pollute a lot less once this low ash oil thing starts in 07. thats why u get all the insurance cuts if u have a diesel, because of all the goverment pollution friendly laws. all that black smoke, comin out of the exhaust pipe is just souit and ash- just like in a heavy fire. like ive sayd, this is just what i heard so.... and if nissan does get a diesel, its gunna be in a 3/4 so, there will be a use for it.

[Waterfowler]

Originally Posted by mudslinggintitan04

always heard that diesels pollute less than gas

Did you think all that black smoke was just water vapor?

[HudsonValleyTitan]

Originally Posted by mudslinggintitan04

idk where u get ur info from hudsonvalley, but i always heard that diesels pollute less than gas, and are gonna pollute a lot less once this low ash oil thing starts in 07. thats why u get all the insurance cuts if u have a diesel, because of all the goverment pollution friendly laws. all that black smoke, comin out of the exhaust pipe is just souit and ash- just like in a heavy fire. like ive sayd, this is just what i heard so.... and if nissan does get a diesel, its gunna be in a 3/4 so, there will be a use for it.

Diesel gives off less carbon dioxide, but particulate matter and NOx are what causes smog. So gasoline is no gem, Diesel pollutants effect us more directly. The whole global warming issue is another chapter altogether.

[mudslinggintitan04]

no, i know it has pollutants in it, its a oil burnin fluid- dur it would.... but i would rather be breathin in a bit more of the other stuff (even though none will be better) than breathin in cigarette and furnace smoke that gas vheicles produce every day, and this is from someone who smokes.....

[HudsonValleyTitan]

Originally Posted by mudslinggintitan04

no, i know it has pollutants in it, its a oil burnin fluid- dur it would.... but i would rather be breathin in a bit more of the other stuff (even though none will be better) than breathin in cigarette and furnace smoke that gas vheicles produce every day, and this is from someone who smokes.....

LOL..I quit over 4 years ago. No arguement there!

[jmeyer]

Originally Posted by HudsonValleyTitan

Diesel gives off less carbon dioxide, but particulate matter and NOx are what causes smog. So gasoline is no gem, Diesel pollutants effect us more directly. The whole global warming issue is another chapter altogether.

You're not kidding that is a whole other chapter. Not to start a big debate or hijack the thread, but I call shenanigans on the whole global warming bull$!!!.

If anyone has studied geology you will know that the earth has undergone many series of warming and cooling trends over the last say 40 million years.

As of late, we are experiencing one of the warming trends. In another say 10,000 years or so, a cooling trend may begin. As for the effect of of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide and all the other happy gases we emit to the atmosphere contributing to global warming, I call shenanigans again. One large volcanic eruption emits more carbon dioxide than we have generated since the industrial revolution. So blame mother earth for a little hearburn causing global warming.

As for the smog, I do agree about automotive emissions being a large contributing factor. I guess thats what you get when a couple million people want to live on the same block! Get the picture and move out of the city!

Sorry to get of an a tangent there and rant a little but the watching the news tonight just got me a little fired up!!!!! I'm gonna go get a beer.

[JGM]

Originally Posted by jmeyer

I would venture to say that it would not get as good of milage as dino-juice similar to the effects of E-85.

There is no milage gain or loss for bio-diesel, but there are a few draw backs to bio, but the cost of producing it is pretty cheap, I mean besides making it fresh from soy etc, you can also just use grease from restaurants, and as far as I know most restaurants will gladly let you empty their grease traps for free

Smog, it can get a little worse, or better depending on who brews it, on average though it is a pretty big drop in emissions.

"Fueling with Biodiesel that is not additized does tend to increase emissions of oxides of nitrogen commonly known as NOx. This increase can be anywhere from 1% - 15% depending on the engine type and blend of Biodiesel used.
But, NOx emissions can be reduced using additives at a rate anywhere from 5% to 30% depending on the additive and feedstock used to produce the Biodiesel."

The one major drawback depending on the blend it can gel up in colder weather so you would still have to mix it with regular diesel in the north, northwest and northeast, at least for the winter months.

Up here in Maine there is a small growing number of Bio Diesel Co-ops and regular gas stations starting to sell it, a bunch of small producers and talks of a large scale refinery to be built, and it is being put to use not in just cars and trucks, but homes and boats and heating homes too. Large scale growth over the us will be many many many years still I think, but here it seems to be picking up steam.
Anyhow if you want a little more info peek around here and sorry about the rant
http://www.renewmaine.org/BFM.htm

[HudsonValleyTitan]

Originally Posted by jmeyer

You're not kidding that is a whole other chapter. Not to start a big debate or hijack the thread, but I call shenanigans on the whole global warming bull$!!!.

If anyone has studied geology you will know that the earth has undergone many series of warming and cooling trends over the last say 40 million years.

As of late, we are experiencing one of the warming trends. In another say 10,000 years or so, a cooling trend may begin. As for the effect of of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide and all the other happy gases we emit to the atmosphere contributing to global warming, I call shenanigans again. One large volcanic eruption emits more carbon dioxide than we have generated since the industrial revolution. So blame mother earth for a little hearburn causing global warming.

As for the smog, I do agree about automotive emissions being a large contributing factor. I guess thats what you get when a couple million people want to live on the same block! Get the picture and move out of the city!

Sorry to get of an a tangent there and rant a little but the watching the news tonight just got me a little fired up!!!!! I'm gonna go get a beer.

A-friggin'-MEN! I too call BS on the whole global warming crap. Oh there's global warming, it's just caused by the natural order of things. We're far too small, when you concider land covers about 1/3 of the planet, to cause warming. I do believe that we're causeing harm to our local air as far as pollution goes though.

[TitanIam]

Oh boy, ingnorance is bliss...

- diesel makes sense in all trucks, especially light duty ones
- new diesels are less polluting that current gasoline engines (Check out the M/B 320 CDi)
- diesels are at least 25% more fuel efficient than gasoline engines
- using less fuel means less demand and less dependance on Middle Eastern oil
- what do we have to gain by not taking global warming seriously? If we do nothing we cannot correct later!
- diesel engines are an immediate answer to consuming less fuel - Hyrdogen and ethanol can come later

Nissan, bring on the light duty diesel. At 25mpg it would be a winner!

[Orange Crush]

1. As I understand it all the big 3’s diesels are outsourced, making it more expensive to the consumer as there is an additional middleman to provide profit to. This RR diesel is a Ford (w/PSA – Citroen) so your not paying an additional premium for a third party logo. Don’t get me wrong, it will be more expensive but unless Ford figures they can get away with the same level of “premium” pricing as they do on their HD diesels, they really have no reason to do so. I’m kinda thinking that if Ford put too much of a premium, they’ll severely overlap against F-250/350’s and they’ll find their salesmen constantly trying to upsell a customer or a smart customer will drive the salesperson nuts trying to haggle on price across several model/option combos.

2. Hudson Valley, I agree with a lot of your points (ex Global Warming) but I think your underestimating the power of summertime $3 gas and the expected increase in fuel economy by going diesel on the psyche of pickup buyers (at least the ones that don’t do the math or the ones that figure to keep a truck till it falls apart). In another vein, the Titan/F150 came out and upped the expectation of what a ½ ton could tow, now the Tundra/GMT900 are doing the same thing with 10-10.5K capability, so with a 480tq diesel and the claimed “strongest” frame in the biz, it a relatively quick and cheap way to continue to keep the F-150 relevant in the towing race. I doubt Ford has the money to build a new platform any time soon.

[red_rider_elsinore]

Jeep offers their Liberty SUV with a diesel engine option. It gets better mileage, but is slower and doesn't have a higher tow rating. I tow a 7200lbs dry Toy Box so I would like a diesel just to tow, but not for daily driving. I have a bigger problem with the payload capacity of my truck than the towing capacity. We all fell in love with the acceleration of our trucks and we would lose that if we go to a diesel. Diesels have great hop-up potential, but stock they're not too fast. Diesels are great for fuel mileage but are very dirty engines. Maybe if the f-150 adds a 6spd auto with the diesel and ups the payload and towing capacity, I would jump ship.

[Orange Crush]

Will it Work?
Honda's advanced converter neutralizes pollution in diesels, but questions remain


By RICHARD TRUETT | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

AutoWeek | Published 10/03/06, 3:52 pm et
It looks like Honda Motor Co. has done it again, this time with diesels.

Using advanced engine controls and a new type of catalytic converter, the Japanese automaker says it has developed a 2.2-liter diesel engine that can run as clean as a gasoline engine.

Unanswered questions abound. But if Honda pulls it off, it would be a breakthrough, on par with the company's CVCC gasoline engine in the early 1970s. The CVCC engine was so clean it didn't need a catalytic converter. It cemented Honda's reputation for engine wizardry.

The big advantage of diesels is that they are about 30 percent more fuel efficient than gasoline engines. So, with a clean diesel, Honda could sell in the United States an Accord family sedan that gets more than 40 mpg on the highway. Honda's diesel Accord sold in Europe gets 44 mpg.

Honda plans to start selling the clean diesel in the United States in 2009.

Honda says it has solved a huge problem with the diesel engine, excess emissions of oxides of nitrogen, or NOx. The compounds contribute to smog.

How it works

One section of Honda's new catalytic converter creates ammonia from diesel exhaust. The ammonia reacts with NOx, releasing harmless nitrogen.

The engine's computer controls enable the catalytic converter to create ammonia. The computer switches the air-to-fuel mixture from lean-burn (less fuel) to rich-burn (more fuel), which sends a brief burst of hydrogen-rich exhaust compounds to the converter. The hydrogen-rich exhaust is converted into ammonia.

Other automakers, notably Mercedes-Benz, have been experimenting with ammonia to eliminate NOx from diesel engines. Mercedes' system holds ammonia-based urea in a separate tank and injects it into the exhaust system.

Honda's solution is far more elegant, and it likely won't run afoul of the EPA.

EPA regulators in Washington don't like Mercedes' system because the responsibility for keeping the vehicle's urea tank filled belongs to the driver.

If the urea runs out, the vehicle won't meet emissions standards. All other emissions systems are passive and don't require driver maintenance.

Mercedes-Benz, the Chrysler group, BMW AG, General Motors and Audi are planning to use urea tanks on diesel engines. Mercedes said last week that it will introduce three diesel vehicles with the tanks in 2008 for sale in all 50 states.

Honda has said that it is willing to license its system to other automakers. To remove particulates, another problem with diesel exhaust, Honda uses a filter in the exhaust system.

Needs EPA approval

While Honda's system looks like a breakthrough, there are unanswered questions:

Honda has tested its emissions system only in the laboratory. It has not yet been approved by the EPA.

Honda engineers don't know yet whether they can make the system work on the low-cetane diesel fuel sold in the United States. Cetane is a measurement of diesel fuel's ability to ignite quickly. Varying levels of cetane in the United States make Honda's system difficult to calibrate.

To pass EPA requirements, the system has to be trouble-free for 10 years or 150,000 miles. Honda has not yet certified its system to those standards.

There's no word on cost. The Honda catalytic converter uses precious metals, such as platinum, which are expensive. Honda spokesman David Iida in Detroit says engineers are working on all those issues and expect to have them solved and the engine on the market in the United States by late 2009.

Several experts agree that Honda probably will solve the remaining problems and launch its diesel on time, probably in the Accord.

"They are pretty confident they can do it," says Dave Foster, a diesel-engine expert and professor who teaches mechanical engineering at the University of Wisconsin in Madison.

Foster, who has been following automakers' efforts to cleanse diesel exhaust closely, says that if Honda's emissions system works as expected, Honda will have a significant advantage over automakers that use urea tanks.

Zoran Filipi, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, calls the innovation clever - if it can be brought to market.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...024/LATESTNEWS

[Wiscdave]

Oh no, here comes the Diesel Ridgeline.....could be impressive. I'd still take the F250 or Dodge 3/4 ton with the 5.9