* CAUTION * Warrantee voided due to K&N Air Charger - Page 2

pciley · 08-09-2004, 07:12 PM

K, the K&N requires you to place the Mass Air Flow Sensor into the new tube from the old tube, there is no meter in the box. If they are charging you $1123 for swapping intakes, you can tell them to... well you sound more easy going than me so subsitute in any lightly vulgar remark you would like.

It sounds like they are trying to recover labor costs (usually like $80 per hour or more for B-level work like that) for dropping your gas tank. Once again, tell them to shove it...
They are at fault for not properly diagnosing the problem through the codes given over the serial link. Anyone in their right mind who saw a hot air code would know it was either the IAT (internal air temperature sensor inside the throttle body) or the MAFS and once they saw under the hood that greasy K&N filter element, the MAFS would probably have been my first guess. But I am not a grease monkey, so maybe they think differently (ie. with out common sense or any troubleshooting ability).
You should talk to your service advisor. IF you paid $1123 for swapping an intake that takes a realistic 2 hours for Joe Blow to do in his garage, multiply that by the hourly rate that dealership charges, and subtract that from $1123 and ask for that sum to be returned to you.

It honestly looks like they were under the assumption that your problem WAS covered by the warranty and there by decided to proceed on all that 11-14 hours of labor without calling YOU FIRST for authorization on that labor.
IM SURE IF YOU HAD KNOWN THE CHARGES BEFORE, you would have swapped the intake back to stock yourself.
Wow.. I am pissed. Can I write a letter for you to the service dept???

I hope you paid by check or credit card. Put a stop payment on the check or call the credit card company and refuse the charges for reasons of fraud.
You always have to authorize those kind of charges before the labor is performed.

I would have left two nice black burn out marks all the way down the service driveway with my longest finger flying out the window back at them. What a hoax!!!

BossHogg · 08-09-2004, 07:52 PM

First, I agree, I would raise the BS flag high; and I would never give them 1180+ for changing the intake. We are talking about something that a monkey could do with a crescent wrench and a half broken screwdriver.

Secondly, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but these products you are putting into your truck are all "snake oil." Yes, they may give you a few horses temporarily, but it is usually at the expense of your OEM parts and sensors. The 5.6L in these Titan's are not your Grandad's 350 small block chebbie style engines. Your logic makes sense on these engines only. Increase air going in, increase air going out, and you increase horsepower. Well, that is great for these engines because they can produce 400+HP, 400+ torque, and do it naturally aspirated. What you paid Nissan 30K dollars to do is produce close to those performance numbers, reliably; giving you 15-18mpg in a 5400 lb truck -- while protecting the environment.

Translated -- listen up for anyone else trying tornado spinners in the intake, pro-long, (insert stupid product here), etc... -- the 99.99 dollar BS part you are putting in your truck may sound great, but it is a one size fits all; with absolutely no thought put into your particular application, product. If you really want to add horsepower, real thought has to be put into every sensor, the computer, injectors, etc... etc... You have to practically become a Nissan engineer by your own research. This does not even begin your headaches when you do get more horses or torque. Everything else in the truck will have to be gone over as well. IE can the tranny and driveline take the extra power, and what about the suspension?

I know this is all after-the-fact stuff for you, but it may help others. I know, I too have had to learn the hard way. PC went into some excellent points, if you were authorizing the work under the premise it would be covered under warranty, well, you have a leg to stand on. If they voided the warranty after the work was completed. Stop payment, and let the dealer try to get the money out of you, rather than the other way around. I would also talk with an attorney if you have already signed the bill, etc... Above all, good luck and don't let those butt clown's push you around.

rholland · 08-09-2004, 08:01 PM

In the Nissan Warranty Info book, page 6"Instalation of non-Nissan approved accessories or components, voids the warrenty", but the Nissan dealerships here sell the K&N air system and the Banks exhaust, so you would think that they would be approved.

pciley · 08-09-2004, 08:04 PM

Thanks for backing me on the stop payment. I would have never left a red cent there, even if it fell off the bottom of my shoe still having gum attached to it.

Boss Hogg, I think the statements about aspiration modifications may be a bit inaccurate. I really don't want to get into a debate, so I will just throw out some usefull information and leave it at that. Hope thats alright with ya.

I started doing light mods on the truck at about 3500 miles, well after the recommended break in. Between the Volant CAI (which sucks, btw), the Banks cat-back, Juma's throttle body bypass, etc. etc. I have gone from a 16.2 at the track to a 15.16 in the 1/4 mile.
MANY people here dont give a rats a$$ about 1/4 mile times, and I understand that. Its just a phase I'm going thru

However, it does illustrate the potential for this motor once you open up the breathing.

I would have to agree hands down the easiest decent displacement V8 to modify has to be a GM 350 block, in part because of all the aftermarket / tuning accessories that are available and the wide-spread know-how at shops around the country (world?) that are familiar with tuning that great engine. It's relatively straight forward to tear down and rebuild and doesn't have to have a super computer controlling it to run smoothly.

I think all stock vehicles are very much detuned from their full potential.. enter the aftermarket modifications.

pciley · 08-09-2004, 08:07 PM

rholland, at the dealership who sold me the truck (Mossy Nissan Oceanside), there is/was a KC with the 8" CST lift, the K&N 'FIPK' and the Banks exhaust system installed on the showroom pad out front of the building. The aftermarket wheels/tires, grill, window tint, etc. probably didn't effect anything warranty-wise, but I have a hard time believing these parts void any over all vehicle warranty. If anything the warranty voiding issue is isolated to just the part that has been changed... ie. if you take off the stock box, the stock air box is no longer under warranty (by the way, who's to prove that you did take the stock box off if you put it back on before service???)

I think it's rediculous that they would sell a BRAND NEW vehicle with these aftermarket products installed if it does in fact void the warranty and warrant an $1123 bill for swapping an air box.

HVACman · 08-09-2004, 08:08 PM

I think what BigPete installed was a bit more sophisticated than a tornado or the like. I'm not arguing your point but, it seems to me that there have been many thousands of these systems installled all kinds of vehicles, both old and new. I might well be wrong, but if there were consistant problems the word would have spread long ago, as in the case of the tornado (see this months issue of consumer reports).

That said, I realized before I did any of my mods, that you "pays your money and takes your chances".

However, I called two Nissan dealerships before I did any mods and the resopnse was the same "a warrantee is voided on a specific part when it is determined that the mod caused the part to fail", not on the entire vehicle. Of course in many cases this is a judgment call made by the service personell, and it dosen't take a high IQ to figure out which way the call will go.

vw1972bugs · 08-09-2004, 08:18 PM

This is all I needed to NOT order a K&N or Banks system. Thank you for saving me the greif. Sorry to hear about your probs.

GETSOMZ28 · 08-09-2004, 08:23 PM

Actually if you can find a paper filter to fit on the end of the aircharger, it would be the best of both worlds.

rholland · 08-09-2004, 08:25 PM

Read your Warranty book, if the after market part is not an approved part, the dealer can choose not to warranty it. Not a good idea, because he will have loss a customer. I dragrace motorcycles, so I have more experiance with motorcycle dealers, but they will warrenty anything, it doesn't cost them anything, and it keeps the customers coming back

avroflyer · 08-09-2004, 08:55 PM

Geez, my dealer sells KN filters in their damned parts department! Ofcourse, this dealer is pretty cool about aftermarket stuff so long as it is a "known" modification, i.e. various CAIs, exhaust systems, etc.. Again though, if you install it wrong they will probably bite you and you really have to be careful about cleaning those filters to keep the oil from coating the MAF.

I would not be suprised though if KN comes to bat for you because any resistance from the manufacturers means less sales to help KNs bottom line. Come on, what the heck does Nissan expect from a truck of this caliber? Certain autos just attract modders and the manufacturers should respect that, within reason of course (if you completely botch an install, well, you will pay for it).

Sorry to hear your dealer and Nissan are being such dinks about this.

Potroast · 08-09-2004, 09:09 PM

Unfortunatly, the dealer is correct in this case.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act only protects your warranty from being voided in instances where the aftermarket part or modification did *not* cause the problem/failure. In this instance, the dealer did a quite convincing job of proving the K&N intake was the cause of the failure, and it's removal solved the issue.

At this point, the dealer is owed a fee, as this is not an issue covered under warranty.

You must go to K&N for damages.

ms.titan · 08-09-2004, 09:24 PM

it doesn't sound like the dealership proved that the K&N intake did anything wrong. their reasoning is that since the meter changed intakes then your entire warranty is voided??? that is a bunch of crap. and $1100+ just to tell you your truck wouldn't run is a bunch of ka-ka!!!!

by the way, i am getting my K&N tomorrow.

ms. titan

Austin · 08-09-2004, 09:57 PM

Some of you guys really need to read the actual language contained in the Magnuson-Moss act. This is the most comprehensive site I've ever found to explain exactly what the Magnuson-Moss act means to you:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm

Bottom line, a dealer or manufacturer may never "void" the warranty on anything. Period. If a dealer tells you he's going to void the warranty, laugh in his face and toss the BS flag as high as you can. They may deny you warranty coverage on select items, but your warranty remains intact and valid for the entire warranty period. It's a semantical difference, but it's true.

The dealer is not required to provide warranty repair on any non-oem part. For instance, if you install a Banks exhaust and the welds all crack and the muffler falls off the truck, the dealer needs not lift a finger. Pretty common-sense.

Here's where people get into trouble: The dealer is not required to provide warranty repair on any oem part which has been damaged as a direct result of abuse or installation of a non-oem part. The catch is, the dealer must prove it.

If you install a cold-air intake that sucks air from the fender well, drive through a puddle, suck up a bunch of water and hydrolock the engine, the dealer has every right to deny you warranty coverage. Even though the engine is completely oem, it's failure (ingestion of water) was caused by a non-oem part.

In your case, you installed a non-OEM air intake. Anyone with even the most rudimentary understanding of how modern engine management functions can tell you that when you install a MAF sensor in a tube shaped or sized differently that the tube in which it was originally calibrated, that MAF sensor will no longer be accurate. It might be close (even close enough you won't notice), but it won't be as accurate as it was in the OEM tube.

Take that to an extreme, and you have an engine control computer that is injecting way too much or way too little fuel for given conditions.

Your problems were obviously caused by your K&N intake - whether it was caused by non-oem tubing shape/size or by the oil on the filter, it was caused by the K&N or the manner in which the K&N was installed.

You shouldn't be stuck with the entire repair bill (only part of it) - it takes a special kind of idiot to work on an OBD2 vehicle and not check the computer for codes before starting work. You should pay whatever is fair for installing an OEM intake back in your truck & scanning and clearing codes.

Fair is fair. Your modifications caused your problems.

Titan Power · 08-09-2004, 11:28 PM

The fact that they swapped the airflow sensor with a new one just proved that the sensor was bad. If did not prove that the filter caused the problem. What kind of airflow sensor do our trucks use? There are only a couple types, hot wire and karmen-vortex, and the flap door style. All have been used for years on many cars. I don't recall ever hearing of one damaged by a K&N.

I think our trucks use a hot wire sensor. a little oil from the K&N shouldn't hurt it. The intake itself is a very oily environment. The breather hose from the valve cover routs back into the intake, and will dump motor oil and vapors in there over time.

I've had K&N's on all my other cars, including my Maxima, for years. One filter is at least 12 years old!

Jason K.

Nissan Junkie · 08-10-2004, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan Power

The fact that they swapped the airflow sensor with a new one just proved that the sensor was bad. If did not prove that the filter caused the problem. What kind of airflow sensor do our trucks use? There are only a couple types, hot wire and karmen-vortex, and the flap door style. All have been used for years on many cars. I don't recall ever hearing of one damaged by a K&N.

I think our trucks use a hot wire sensor. a little oil from the K&N shouldn't hurt it. The intake itself is a very oily environment. The breather hose from the valve cover routs back into the intake, and will dump motor oil and vapors in there over time.

I've had K&N's on all my other cars, including my Maxima, for years. One filter is at least 12 years old!

Jason K.

I have to disagree with you here...

I have heard of the oil in a K&N filter "charger", wreaking absolute havoc with the hot wire sensors (especialy the hot wire sensors) which are common in most vehicles theese days...

In another post I stated that I would reccomend an ITG filter over a K&N any day of the week!

The ITG has a different type of oil, the oil comes in a spray can... and requires a very light coat!

The K&N has a thick jelatinous oil, from the factory they have just a thin strip of oil, figure about a 1/4" stripe for a surface that covers 2"

Generaly the problems dont surface until the customer reoils the filter (typicaly the customer oils too much) and the oil has no where to go but through the intake... and if it happens to get on the hot wire... well that wire will read imporperly...