* CAUTION * Warrantee voided due to K&N Air Charger - Page 5

llajumpvid · 08-10-2004, 06:39 PM

While it hasn't cost me as much (an extra $15 a day to drive a Murano vs. a $30 gallant covered by warranty). I feel your anger as I'm dealing with a total lack of common sense at my dealership/Nissan HQ as well! Aftermarket video screen warning-warranty issues

supertitan · 08-10-2004, 07:37 PM

so if I INSTALLED A JBA EXHAUST SYSTEM WOULD THAT VOID MY WARRANTY

TNTITAN · 08-10-2004, 07:48 PM

No, SuperTitan, it technically would not. However, if an engine problem developed due to headers then it would. Just having them does not void your warranty, having them damage a component means the damaged component is not covered, but the rest of your vehicle is still fully covered. In the case of the K&N, the oil from the filter killed the MAF sensor so it is rightfully not covered. On my old Discovery the K&N drop in killed the MAF sensor and was thus not covered under warranty, but then again it only cost $150. I did not expect Land Rover to pay for something broken resulting from my modification.

Titan Power · 08-10-2004, 08:00 PM

I have to disagree with you here...

I have heard of the oil in a K&N filter "charger", wreaking absolute havoc with the hot wire sensors (especialy the hot wire sensors) which are common in most vehicles theese days...

In another post I stated that I would reccomend an ITG filter over a K&N any day of the week!

The ITG has a different type of oil, the oil comes in a spray can... and requires a very light coat!

The K&N has a thick jelatinous oil, from the factory they have just a thin strip of oil, figure about a 1/4" stripe for a surface that covers 2"

Generaly the problems dont surface until the customer reoils the filter (typicaly the customer oils too much) and the oil has no where to go but through the intake... and if it happens to get on the hot wire... well that wire will read imporperly...

Sure it is possible that the K&N damaged the airflow sensor. It's just not probable. It's also possible that the sensor was defective to begin with and failed on it's own. It's also possible that the problem was due to a loose connection. But until Nissan verifys that the sensor was infact bad, and the cause of the failure, we won't know. They ASSUMED the K&N was at fault.

Unless I see pictures of an oil coated airflow sensor, I won't be convinced that was the cause. There are many other hot-wire equipped cars that do just fine with K&N's. I've had K&N's on all my other cars for years, with hundreds of thousands of combined miles. I've never seen the oil get into the intake. For one, the oil is sprayed onto the filter. Secondly, it's sprayed onto the outside of the filter element, the inside is almost dry to the touch. It doesn't coat the filter, it is soaked into the cotton.

Here are some pics of an airflow sensor from an Eagle Talon I had sitting in the garage. If any engine could pull the oil out of the filter, this one could. The intake led to an upgraded turbo running anywhere from 15-20+psi of boost. The K&N was on this MAS for over 10 years and at least 120,000mi. It has been re-oiled more times then I can count. The MAS sat fully inside the air filter. Yet there is no trace of K&N oil on the anywhere unit. I don't believe the Titan could have pulled out any oil, let alone enough to ruin a sensor in just 1000 miles. Nissan needs to prove it.

http://photobucket.com/albums/1103/A...?action=logout

Jason K.

avroflyer · 08-10-2004, 08:41 PM

The fact of the matter here is that the dealer has to PROVE it. Of the "evidence" presented, none of it includes a MAF covered in caked-on KN oil. I know I come off paranoid on this, but I had to go through this once, and ever since I am just convinced that for every decent dealer out there, there is another who is "on the side of the manufacturer" if you will, and will try to nail the customer against the wall. Its bad for business and bad for the marketplace.

Once they prove it beyond a doubt, fine, cowboy up the cash and pay the fine. Those who mod take the risk. Lets remember though that there would not be a market for aftermarket parts unless protections exist. By not proving beyond a doubt that the problem was caused by the aftermarket part in question (drop-filters included here), that is taking advantage of the law and of the customer.

Now onto Nismo, TRD, Mopar and the rest. Do they know how much of a killing they could make if they offered the variety that the aftermarket manufacturers do? That way, all of this talk would be moot!

Slurppie · 08-10-2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avroflyer

Now onto Nismo, TRD, Mopar and the rest. Do they know how much of a killing they could make if they offered the variety that the aftermarket manufacturers do? That way, all of this talk would be moot!

This might be a little off the subject but the Nismo CAI for the Altima is made by AEM which uses a K&N airfilter rebranded for AEM. Point is, I doubt that Nismo would use a filter that screws up the MAF.

avroflyer · 08-10-2004, 09:18 PM

Another excellent point Slurpee. Good catch.

MaxPowers · 08-10-2004, 09:19 PM

It seems to me you could have just put the stock airbox back on when you took it back to the dealer that way they couldn't have said that. That is a reason why i kept my stock airbox in case any problems were to happen i could just put it back on.

avroflyer · 08-10-2004, 09:37 PM

I think his Titan stalled out on him somewhere and he had to be towed to the dealer?

HVACman · 08-10-2004, 10:36 PM

I REALLY want to know if and how much K&N is going to step up to the plate in terms of helping BigPete. If K&N simply points to a bunch of papers and does nothing more... well, that would speak volumes about how strongly they believe in what they sell and say about their own products. A lack of interest/action/help on their part would not inspire a lot of confidence.

Nissan Junkie · 08-10-2004, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan Power

Unless I see pictures of an oil coated airflow sensor, I won't be convinced that was the cause. There are many other hot-wire equipped cars that do just fine with K&N's. I've had K&N's on all my other cars for years, with hundreds of thousands of combined miles. I've never seen the oil get into the intake. For one, the oil is sprayed onto the filter. Secondly, it's sprayed onto the outside of the filter element, the inside is almost dry to the touch. It doesn't coat the filter, it is soaked into the cotton.

I can prove that it is not sprayed on, I sat in on an informational class on K&N filters, (back when I was an asst mgr at Chief Auto Parts), the filters come out of the factory with a 1/4" strip of the oil in a wave patern on the filter, while you are right that it is soaked in, it starts as a 1/4" strip of oil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan Power

Here are some pics of an airflow sensor from an Eagle Talon I had sitting in the garage. If any engine could pull the oil out of the filter, this one could. The intake led to an upgraded turbo running anywhere from 15-20+psi of boost. The K&N was on this MAS for over 10 years and at least 120,000mi. It has been re-oiled more times then I can count. The MAS sat fully inside the air filter. Yet there is no trace of K&N oil on the anywhere unit. I don't believe the Titan could have pulled out any oil, let alone enough to ruin a sensor in just 1000 miles. Nissan needs to prove it.

http://photobucket.com/albums/1103/A...?action=logout

Jason K.

I have seen it happen in less that 1000 miles... good for you that you know how to oil the filter properly...

the fact is that most over oil, and the over oiling does cause problems with MAF sensors, now this particular issue may have been a mistake at the facory, but you ask any factory tech, and they will tell the that they have at least heard of a K&N filter killing a MAF, if not seen one.

you can sit and say that you have had no problem all day...

I will sit here and say that I have both seen it, and heard of it, from mutiple sources...

TNTITAN · 08-11-2004, 03:19 PM

I second Nissan Junkie, as it has actually hapenned to me, so there is a little proof. And yes, it was after I cleaned and reoiled. Someone owes BigPete money, it is just not Nissan--it is K&N. I do think Nissan owes you some proof, but K&N should really step up here if they are a worthy company.

BigPete · 08-11-2004, 04:53 PM

Here is an update...

1) I received a phone call from Nissan’s Corporate HQ located in California. They offered to send the air filter to Nissan in Japan for analysis. Based on Nissan’s analysis, they could affirm their decision not to honor the warranty and find fault with the filter or find nothing wrong with it and send a check totaling the amount in damages. What do YOU think the results would be? I am sure that K&N would not want this. Could you image the damage Nissan could do to K&N’s reputation if they were able to document and publicize that the filter could cause engine damage?

2) I immediately called K&N’s legal department. I advised them that Nissan is requesting the filter back for analysis. K&N is sending me a claim packet and stated that I should sent the MAF, the entire Aircharger kit and copies of all invoices, receipts, and OBD2 sensor print outs to K&N. They will make a decision in the next few weeks after looking over everything. I think that this is a positive step in my direction.

After being involved in this, I was able to learn a lot about the MAF sensors and K&N’s filter. I know that the Titan uses a “hot wire” MAF. Meaning that the computer sends voltage to two tiny wires located at the end of the MAF sensor. This wire is heated up to a specific temperature. Based on the amount of air flowing over this wire the air will cool the preset temperature on these wires. The amount of voltage needed to bring this wire back up to temperature is what is needed to calculate the fuel mixture.

If a stock air filter allows say, 510 CFM to pass through it and the K&N allows say, 810 CFM (numbers are guessed for this example) to pass then obviously more air will cool the wire faster thus providing more fuel. I wonder if Nissan could make an issue stating that since the MAF is calibrated and tested to heat the wire based on 510 CFM that the additional voltage needed to keep up the temperature with the additional air flow from the K&N caused damaged to the MAF.

Believe me, I am on K&N’s side. I am not an electrical engineer or a mechanic nor am i someone who will accept any BS but to me, this example would sound plausible. I am saddened that I will not longer be able to use K&N’s AirCahrger but I wonder how much of a benefit was I really receiving to balance the amount of liability. I know the combo of the K&N and Banks has shown increases around 20HP but I do not know how much comes from the K&N or how much is gained from the Banks.

I hope the Banks exhaust will not cause any headaches.

Austin · 08-11-2004, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPete

If a stock air filter allows say, 510 CFM to pass through it and the K&N allows say, 810 CFM (numbers are guessed for this example) to pass then obviously more air will cool the wire faster thus providing more fuel. I wonder if Nissan could make an issue stating that since the MAF is calibrated and tested to heat the wire based on 510 CFM that the additional voltage needed to keep up the temperature with the additional air flow from the K&N caused damaged to the MAF.

MAF calibration is set based on the housing shape and size, not on the amount of air molecules the MAF is metering.

The entire function of a MAF sensor is to meter all the air molecules being ingested by the engine, then give the ECU/ECM that data to facilitate accurate and correct fuel delivery for the current conditions.

When the MAF sensor housing changes shape or size, the functionality of the MAF reading is reduced - in extreme cases, to the point of affecting engine operation (sputtering, etc.).

MAF damage from hotwire oil collection is a whole different ball game than poor MAF function due to altered intake piping. MAF sensors can be damaged over time due to oil buildup, and they may also fail catastrophically after 1000 hours of what appeared to be trouble-free operation.

pciley · 08-11-2004, 07:44 PM

If the oil on the MAF is causing the engine sputtering, is there any possibility that it wasn't permanently damaged? Can you simply clean off the MAF and reset the ECU and go on your mary way?

ALSO:: Big Pete, I want to reiterate. I understand the fuel leve you had upon being towed into the shop. I STILL DONT THINK YOU SHOULD PAY FOR THE LABOR to drop the tank. I will stand by what I said that you should ONLY have to pay the DEALER for swapping the intake, and THATS ONLY if you AUTHORIZED the charges. I would obviously go after K&N for the costs of swapping intakes and towing, etc. BUT THE DEALER Sholdnt charge you for their mis diagnosis in the first place.

Another reiteration: Labor to swap intakes is ALOT less than $900. Probably more like 2 hours of labor in the flag book. (although it takes a half an hour)

Good luck getting your wasted money back Pete! I'd say the dealer is responsible for everything (that was a result of the misdiagnosis) but swapping the MAF, and the intake, and that K&N is liable for the rest including your rental, tow, etc.
The fact that the fuel guage wasn't reading properly is a seperate warranty issue, not voided by the intake modification. Anything regarding droping the gas tank should NOT BE paid for by you.