Tuning the Titan and exploring options...experienced users please chime in!!

[Justin311]

Hello All!

A bit on me: I have had my Titan for nearly a year and love the truck...(the only thing I don't like about it is the gas mileage and in town parking ).

While I am semi-new to the Titan I am not as new to tuning. I have tuned many 90's Toyotas and I am somewhat familiar with their Read Only Memory chip in their Engine Control Unit (ECU or Engine Management). As of now I have moved on to complete aftermarket engine management systems (AEM, Hydra Nemesis, Motec, etc).

Some questions I have: I know that with the integration of OBDII there is on board input/outputs in the newer computers. Does the Titan ECU have this capability? Does anybody make a software interface?

I have read a few threads about the "black box" from ProAuto. I am very interested in this, and he has seen some great gains. This is intriguing me enough that I want to start playing with my truck to see what kind of performance gains I can realize, as well as see if I can improve the fuel economy.

I have read the following descriptions regarding the Titan's tuning:

The Titan wants a Fuel mixture of around 11.7:1 up to 4000 rpm. There
is a natural supercharging effect occuring in the Intake Plenum that builds
torque-( This by the way is where most Supercharged Vehicles like there
air/fuel mixture) After 4000 rpm you want to get to 12.5- 13.0 Air/Fuel
Ratio up to redline or mph governor on the Dyno!-- ..... I have had a couple of conversations about the Mossy Headers and
looking forward to gettin some and programming them for max power an no
Check Engine LAmp! .....customer can run regular unleaded the yunichip had timing at 30 degrees-
way too much for the efficient swirl burn of the Titan combustion chamber!

My first question is; is the "black box" adjusting the timing tables at all?

The description of the black box function that I found (this is NOT from ProAuto) sounds suprisingly familar:

Actually, it is software that creates new MAF voltage output vs RPM maps within the box. By altering the MAF voltage that the ecu sees, you cause the ecu to utilize more ideal maps (either more rich, or more lean) at specific areas of the rpm curve. It's basically a translator.

It sounds identical to any Air/Fuel controller on the market, manufactured by Apex'i and Blitz, to name a few. It is basically intercepting the MAF sensor and fooling the ECU into thinking it is seeing a richer mixture, therefore leaning out the mixture. The dangerous side effect in some applications is that your ignition table is referenced off of your manifold pressure/air flow meter, and your timing gos thru the roof, introducing the possiblity of major problems. That is why we shy away from these gizmos.

So my main question is, how does the "black box" differ from an AFR controller?

Second, I'm wondering how the stock ECU is utilizing the stock widebands. The titan (from what I can see) has (2) narrow bands and (2) widebands. Generally a narrowband is used for closed loop operation, basically idling and crusing. WOT on the other hand is governed by open loop operation, in which the narrowband scale is off. I was assuming that the widebands were in place to have an AFR reference so that the OEM computer could adjust timing based off of what octane fuel you have in there (resistance to detonation). But then I saw a post stating that the customer needed to have an aftermarket wideband controller/sensor to read their AFRs and make changes to the inputs of the black box. Why would this be necessary if the OEM widebands are in there? What role do they play in the stock configuration?

Lastly, I'm wondering what economy benefits people are seeing with the black box, or any other fuel trimming device. I saw one post claiming +2 mpg on the highway, but I find that hard to beleive as that is nearly a 15% gain over stock. The same post mentioned some other numbers that were later proved incorrect. So could I get some feedback?

Thanks, and sorry for the long post!!

[Justin311]

52 views and not one reply? Did I say something wrong? LOL

[shawnwat4]

Haha, no bro, thats just too technical for my pea brain. I'm sure there are some guys on here that can help you though.

[Justin311]

Arg...I really hope there is the option for some technical discussion on this board?

I am so impressed with the results our motors are getting with relatively few mods...I want to go further!

Has NOBODY installed an AFC on our trucks?!? Perhaps I'll be the pioneer then!!

[CaptFDU]

The 2 mpg gain on the highway driving back from Proauto is true. I have all of my gas milage in a chart since I bought the truck. I'm new to drag racing and really don't understand how my numbers were proven wrong when I ran better times with what I would consider worse starts, but it was only my second time at the track. I for one am very happy with the black box... As for the milage, I don't recall having a 100mph tail wind so I think the box must have had something to do with it...

[Justin311]

Hi CaptFDU:

I hope you don't take it personally when I say your numbers were proven wrong so I take you mpg with a grain of salt. If you have questions about drag racing I can gladly help you. It may help to think of a drag race as split up into 4 sections: RT, 60', Trap speed and ET. RT is meaningless unless you are racing your buddy or racing competitively. For performance reading ignore this number.

60' really shows your launch, your traction, and your driving ability. This is where you made up half of your performance increase. Conditions were better, track was better prepped, or your driving got better. One of the 3.

MPH shows effectivley your HP. The more HP you have, the faster you get to the top of each gear, and the faster you are traveling after one quarter mile.

ET, which is the only one most people talk about, shows basically the mixture of your driving ability and the car's hp. I can't really think of a better way to describe it.

Soooo...when you stated that you picked up a half second, and people noted you picked up a quarter second in your 60', they could deduce that you only picked up a quarter second worth of horsepower from your mods.

Does that make more sense?

Anyways, on to the subject at hand: your excellent dyno plots.

Reading your signature, and looking at your description and plots, I am understanding the following:

Bone stock @ 3500 rpm, you made 226 ftlb.
After adding intake and exhaust, you made 245 ftlb (+19).
After adding nothing more than black box, you made 325 ftlb (+99 !)

That simply blows me away. With an intake, exhaust and leaning it out, you effectively made 120 flywheel horsepower! Or am I missing something??

[GreenT]

He did not gain 99wtq. There was something MAJORLY wrong with his stock numbers. Stock Titans consistantly make 315wtq. With intake and exhaust some are around 350wtq. As far i I know nobody has installed an SAFCII. I was wondering what it would do for us as well. Buy one and give it a shot.

[RB's Titan]

Justin go for it....I'm returning my Unichip due to lack of performance gains and tuning ability.

I'd love to see someone tune the beast within our trucks and then get back and share with us data and know how.

[Justin311]

Originally Posted by GreenT

He did not gain 99wtq. There was something MAJORLY wrong with his stock numbers. Stock Titans consistantly make 315wtq. With intake and exhaust some are around 350wtq. As far i I know nobody has installed an SAFCII. I was wondering what it would do for us as well. Buy one and give it a shot.

I see I see...thanks for clearing that up for me. I was skeptical but very excited at the same time...now I'm bummed

So I glanced at your link to your plots in your sig "RB's Titan". They seem much more what I expected a stock Titan to put down!

The one thing I see consitently on this site is a comparison of peak wtq and whp. Are we taking the rpm at which these values occur into consideration?

Does anybody have dyno run files from an OEM and modded titan they could email me so I could do some comparisons?

I am likely going to pick up an older SAFC prior to the next time I run down to the dyno...see what kind of tuning can be done. It likely won't be much if theres already 315 wtq to be had and with those mods he's only pulling it up to 325 wtq. But I'm still interested none-the-less!!

Oh...and is anybody familiar with the ECU wiring on this car? I don't know what ProAuto is tapping into but we need to find the air flow meter (AFM) wire and the TACH wire for me to tap an SAFC into. I am ashamed to admit I haven't done much more to this truck than stereo, change the oil, and put on an exhaust...I don't even know where the ECU is LOL.

Usually on toyotas its a blue wire. It feeds the signal from the AFM to the ECU. You cut this wire and rereoute the signal from the AFM into the SAFC, then you route the signal from the TACH into the SAFC as well. There is an output wire on the SAFC, whcih you then patch into the other end of the "blue wire" (AFM) which sends the signal to the ECU. Then of course power and ground, no biggie. Does this sound like the installation process of the "black box"? Is there anything more complicated? I'm assuming apex'i doens't publish install instructions for the Titan since this isn't a normal application LOL.

[GreenT]

Look at the consolidation of mods thread at the top of the performance forum. There are some guys putting down over 350wtq with just intake and exhaust mods. Hell look at RB's numbers.Not to knock this guy any but he made the same trap speed before and after tuning so obviously gained nothing but the thought of more power. Seems to me that this guy is manipulating the dyno to show gains.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Justin311

I know that with the integration of OBDII there is on board input/outputs in the newer computers. Does the Titan ECU have this capability? Does anybody make a software interface?

There are several OBD2 scan tools which utilize the standard OBD2 protocol to display data monitored by the ECU. The problem with using OBD2 is that the scan rate is ungodly slow - about 3.2 samples per second maximum.

You can also buy what the dealers use - a Consult II Scan Tool. With it you can diagnose and monitor a wide array of functions and trouble codes on the Titan. The Consult II can harvest much more information than a traditional OBDII scan tool.

They're pricey... $4211.94 last time I checked.

A feature list:
• Replaces the CONSULT as the premier
essential diagnostic tool for computerized
on-board systems for Nissan and Infiniti.
• High speed 32-bit Motorola Power PC
processor for rapid real-time graphical format
• Large, high resolution touch screen.
• Diagnostic systems: Automatic Transmission,
ABS, Cruise Control (ASCD), Traction Control
(TCS), Air Bag, In-Vehicle Multiplex System
(IVMS) and Smart Entance Control Unit.
• Includes diagnostic & NATS software cards
• Future program updates on ASIST CD-Rom
• Internal thermal paper printer
• Supports reprogramming of the electronic
control module when used with ECM
reprogramming card, J-44200-ECMR
• Oscilloscope function
• Multimeter function
• High speed PC Ethernet cable.
• Converter and Cable Set

Originally Posted by Justin311

Second, I'm wondering how the stock ECU is utilizing the stock widebands. The titan (from what I can see) has (2) narrow bands and (2) widebands. Generally a narrowband is used for closed loop operation, basically idling and crusing. WOT on the other hand is governed by open loop operation, in which the narrowband scale is off. I was assuming that the widebands were in place to have an AFR reference so that the OEM computer could adjust timing based off of what octane fuel you have in there (resistance to detonation). But then I saw a post stating that the customer needed to have an aftermarket wideband controller/sensor to read their AFRs and make changes to the inputs of the black box. Why would this be necessary if the OEM widebands are in there? What role do they play in the stock configuration?

The widebands are used in closed loop operation - cruise and light accel - to set both short and long term fuel trims.

The narrowbands are only used to determine cat converter efficiency. Narrowband o2 sensors are also referred to as switching sensors. They're either rich or lean, high or low, 1v or 0. Any "AFR meter" you see which uses a narrow band input is snake oil.

The problem with most AFR controllers (interceptors, signal modifiers) or unichip type devices is that they won't work in unison with an adaptive ECU.

Here's a reply I wrote on another board to a question about the unichip. Based on your description of the black box (intercepts and modifies the MAF signal), it suffers from the same faults as the unichip. The example below references timing, but fuel delivery is similar.

Unichips worked great for a few years, but they are long past their prime.

Today's ECU's are highly adaptive - they monitor multiple engine parameters and change operating points frequently.

If your ECU wants your truck to run 25 degrees of advance at 2500 rpm at a certain load, it does it. Now, you install a unichip. For increased torque, whoever mapped the unichip decided you should run 28 degrees of advance at 2500 rpm at that same load point - so the unichip adds 3 degrees of timing by intercepting the crank position sensor signal and modifying it - making the ECU think you're really running 22 degrees of advance.

So, for a short while (often measured in seconds, but it depends on how long you're at that certain RPM at that certain load point), your ECU still wants 25 degrees and thinks it has 22 - so it ramps up advance by 3 degrees. When it does that, though, it becomes unhappy with conditions at that rpm at that load point. So, it decides it needs to pull a little timing to correct the situation. It pulls 3 degrees. Your ECU now thinks that it wants to run 22 degrees at that RPM at that load point, so that's what it does. Of course, it's actually running 25 degrees - but that's what you initlially started with.

This continues at all RPMs at all load points until the ECU has basically been detuned. You end up with very similar performance with ECU+Unichip as you has before installing the unichip.

So, you remove the unichip - now you're moderately detuned, but only for a short time because the ECU is highly adaptive. It'll quickly adjust operating conditions to get back to where it wants to be.

In short, Unichips are old and severely outdated. Quite a waste of money. They're especially worthless on turbo cars, which normally have even more advanced, adaptive and authoritative ECUs.

[RB's Titan]

Originally Posted by Justin311

I see I see...thanks for clearing that up for me. I was skeptical but very excited at the same time...now I'm bummed

So I glanced at your link to your plots in your sig "RB's Titan". They seem much more what I expected a stock Titan to put down!

The one thing I see consitently on this site is a comparison of peak wtq and whp. Are we taking the rpm at which these values occur into consideration?

Does anybody have dyno run files from an OEM and modded titan they could email me so I could do some comparisons?

I am likely going to pick up an older SAFC prior to the next time I run down to the dyno...see what kind of tuning can be done. It likely won't be much if theres already 315 wtq to be had and with those mods he's only pulling it up to 325 wtq. But I'm still interested none-the-less!!

Oh...and is anybody familiar with the ECU wiring on this car? I don't know what ProAuto is tapping into but we need to find the air flow meter (AFM) wire and the TACH wire for me to tap an SAFC into. I am ashamed to admit I haven't done much more to this truck than stereo, change the oil, and put on an exhaust...I don't even know where the ECU is LOL.

Usually on toyotas its a blue wire. It feeds the signal from the AFM to the ECU. You cut this wire and rereoute the signal from the AFM into the SAFC, then you route the signal from the TACH into the SAFC as well. There is an output wire on the SAFC, whcih you then patch into the other end of the "blue wire" (AFM) which sends the signal to the ECU. Then of course power and ground, no biggie. Does this sound like the installation process of the "black box"? Is there anything more complicated? I'm assuming apex'i doens't publish install instructions for the Titan since this isn't a normal application LOL.

I have the dyno with mods file .drf but not the stock. You'll need dynojet winprep software to open and read the file. I also know that the white wire on MAF is the voltage. The ECU is barried in the back left corner of engine bay under cowl. Be careful un/plugging the harness as the clamps are a bit weak.

[RB's Titan]

Originally Posted by Austin

You can also buy what the dealers use - a Consult II Scan Tool. With it you can diagnose and monitor a wide array of functions and trouble codes on the Titan. The Consult II can harvest much more information than a traditional OBDII scan tool.

Austin I'm still waiting for one to show up on eBay...

[Justin311]

Ah...excellent info Austin and RB.

Austin: I am assuming that the Titan's ECU is adaptive since you are describing it here. If so, your example of the unichip + timing drives your point home well. Basically you are saying that the ECU is in closed loop at all times, constantly rechecking and readjusting.

I am also assuming that the ECU is going to do a similar feedback loop and adjust pulsewidth and so forth, rendering the SAFC useless.

So the quesiton is, how does the "black box" work? The description made it sound exactly like an SAFC. Or am I missing the point, that you think the black box is basically an SAFC and is garbage?

What do you think of this datalogging software:

http://www.uprev.com/

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Justin311

Austin: I am assuming that the Titan's ECU is adaptive since you are describing it here. If so, your example of the unichip + timing drives your point home well. Basically you are saying that the ECU is in closed loop at all times, constantly rechecking and readjusting.

Yes, the Titan's ECU is quite adaptive.

Go fill up with twice with 92 or 93 octane. At the end of the 2nd tank, hook up your OBD2 monitor and see what the motor is doing.

After you have a good feel for what the numbers are with 92 octane, fill up with 87 octane and watch the numbers drop.



And, yes, the ECU is constantly checking and rechecking. It really won't take 2 tanks of 92 octane for you to see the improvement - it'll take about 15 minutes of varying load conditions.



The unichip was a great idea for a while, but its simply not useful for any new vehicle. Period. End of story.

Originally Posted by Justin311

I am also assuming that the ECU is going to do a similar feedback loop and adjust pulsewidth and so forth, rendering the SAFC useless.

Yup, the SAFC is very much the same as the unichip in its modus operandi. Fine for your 1993 project car, useless on your brand new toy.

My favorite aftermarket engine management is the Electromotive TEC3. Absolutely unbeatable ignition system (with near-perfection in timing control) with a very sophisticated control platform. For any serious project car - serious being a project which you'd be using a programmable engine management system - the TEC3 is the answer. The TEC3 will completely replace the SAFC and 10 other piggyback controllers combined, as will most engine management systems by reputable companies.

That means the SAFC is useful only to the highschool rice-boy who wants pretty lights and is all show/no go.

Originally Posted by Justin311

So the quesiton is, how does the "black box" work? The description made it sound exactly like an SAFC. Or am I missing the point, that you think the black box is basically an SAFC and is garbage?

I have quite a bit of experience with SAFCs. They are not garbage... in some applications. In any serious application, the SAFC is not needed. In lower budget applications, the SAFC can be a useful tool.

As far as how the black box works... I don't know. I really haven't read anything about it. I use little cars to go fast... I use big trucks to get muddy. I haven't done anything to my Titan to increase power or make it go faster. It'll spin my 37" tires, and that makes me happy. Give me some links to the black box and I'll give you my opinion.

It'll have to be tomorrow, though... I've had way too much to drink tonight.

Originally Posted by Justin311

What do you think of this datalogging software:

http://www.uprev.com/

Eh... It's okay, but it's not all that. Some OBD2 codes are standard (P0xxx) and some are manufacturer specific (P1xxx). Looks like this uprev setup allows reading the manufacturer specific codes. That's really nothing special - any generic OBD2 scanning program will do that. Add the factory service manual to your generic OBD2 software, and you have all the answers.

The uprev software may be able to read some MFR specific sensors that standard OBD2 protocol can not - so it may be worthful there.