Towing 28 ft TT with 2005 4x2 KC SE w/o BT

melhow · 04-25-2008, 03:16 PM

Hi everyone, newbie to travel trailer towing here. Thanks in advance for your help.

My husband and I recently purchased a Keystone Hideout 23RKS and are looking forward to our first outing next weekend. Before we got on the road, I wanted to run the numbers that I came up with by the experienced towers here to see if I am on target.

The Hideout specs:

Dry weight 5320, box length 24 feet, hitch to bumper 28 feet 6 inches.

Titan, no Big Tow package, specs:

GVWR - 6422
Max Tow - 7400
Curb Weight (includes fuel and necessary fluids to run, according to dealer) - 4966
Payload capacity - 1440
Tongue Max - 740
Tire cargo load max - 2600
GCWR - 12,800

We have a class III U-Haul hitch receiver that is rated 10000 max tow and 1000 max tongue with WD.

Installed at dealer the Reese Dual Cam WD with 800# bars and Prodigy brake system.

Please check my figures.

In the truck:

Driver and Passenger - 360
Generators (2 Honda 2000's) - 100
My camera gear and husband's hunting stuff - 100
Hitch, assuming tongue weight 12% of loaded trailer - 750
Fiberglass topper - 200

Puts the truck at 6476, so 54 pounds over GVWR.

In the Trailer

2 20# propane tanks - 50
Battery - 50
Memory foam mattress topper - 50
Various Accessories (grill, chairs, table, interior do-dads) - 250
Personal Luggage - 400

Puts the trailer at 6150.

All in all, GCWR of 12,626.

I figure on long trips we can get the ice, groceries and firewood upon arrival. When dry camping, we can fill the water tank at the last stop.

On short trips, we can cut down the personal luggage and replace with food and ice. Again, fill the water at the last stop.

Does this sound correct and realistic to you?

I have to say, the drive home from the dealer on I-4 here in Tampa was white knuckle. Not a surprise, as we were probably loaded all wrong with an empty trailer but a dealer filled water tank, a WD hitch that the dealer set up that we have yet to adjust, and a truck bed full of gear and junk that we didn't unload prior to our TT delivery. Our next two purchases are going to be a set of LT tires for the truck and a nice set of Bilstein shocks.

There is a learning curve to towing, that is for sure.

Thanks again for you help and advice!

Melissa

Derwud · 04-25-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melhow

The Hideout specs:

Dry weight 5320, box length 24 feet, hitch to bumper 28 feet 6 inches.

Titan, no Big Tow package, specs:

I have to say, the drive home from the dealer on I-4 here in Tampa was white knuckle. Not a surprise, as we were probably loaded all wrong with an empty trailer but a dealer filled water tank, a WD hitch that the dealer set up that we have yet to adjust, and a truck bed full of gear and junk that we didn't unload prior to our TT delivery. Our next two purchases are going to be a set of LT tires for the truck and a nice set of Bilstein shocks.

There is a learning curve to towing, that is for sure.

Thanks again for you help and advice!

Melissa

Melissa,

Weigh your trailer.. I'm sure it is much heavier than what you posted.. What is GVWR of the trailer? I always use the GVWR as my guide to which trailer to buy.

Your shopping list should include:
LT tires.
Bilstien or ICON rear shocks (Contact PRG for all your suspension needs)
Air Bags. (Again Greg @ PRG)

**loufish** · 04-25-2008, 05:27 PM

If you can't get LT tires by the next outiing, make sure the trucks tires are at their max cold pressure setting.
Also, load as much stuff as you can in the trailer, that will help get the trucks weight down. You do need to spend some time in a flat parking lot to get the WD set up correctly...That trailers a little over 28 ft...I wouldn't want to tow anything longer then that(guys here will tell you they do it, but I wouldn't...)

Correct tire pressure, WD set up correctly, added tongue weight( batteries, propane tanks and propane) should relieve most of that white knuckle...

Your trailer has a GVW of 7620, that's right at a non-tow Titan's limit, but if you don't load everything you own in it, you'll get by...

Add 300-400 lbs to the trailers empty weight to get a more realistic number.

melhow · 04-25-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwud

Melissa,

Weigh your trailer.. I'm sure it is much heavier than what you posted.. What is GVWR of the trailer? I always use the GVWR as my guide to which trailer to buy.

Your shopping list should include:
LT tires.
Bilstien or ICON rear shocks (Contact PRG for all your suspension needs)
Air Bags. (Again Greg @ PRG)

Thanks Derwud,

Specs:
Width - 8'
Over All Height - 10' 3"
GVWR - 7,640 lbs
UVW - 5,620 lbs
Hitch Weight - 640 lbs

The shocks and LT's are in the works. Might wait on the air bags until we see how we are riding with the mods.

melhow · 04-25-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loufish

Add 300-400 lbs to the trailers empty weight to get a more realistic number.

Thank you for the response! I think we are going to hit a weigh station and get some real numbers loaded for the truck and trailer for all axles and the tongue and see where we really stand. The manufacturer lists the "dry weight" that I listed as the trailer delivery weight, which includes all of the options we have and no extra dealer add ons. We didn't get any add ons from the dealer, so that should be accurate. I have added into my calculations as additions the propane and batteries, and we plan on running dry until we get close to camp. So I expect that the dealer "dry/delivery" weight might be fairly close. We shall see......

**loufish** · 04-25-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

The manufacturer lists the "dry weight" that I listed as the trailer delivery weight, which includes all of the options we have and no extra dealer add ons. We didn't get any add ons from the dealer, so that should be accurate. I have added into my calculations as additions the propane and batteries, and we plan on running dry until we get close to camp. So I expect that the dealer "dry/delivery" weight might be fairly close. We shall see......

That would be very different, dry advertised weights are with out any options, no a/c, awnings, oven, propane tanks, etc, etc...
There should be a white weight sticker usually inside a cupboard door that lists the actual weight empty, but as outfitted and delivered to the dealer. This is after any factory options...

JohnS · 04-25-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loufish

That would be very different, dry advertised weights are with out any options, no a/c, awnings, oven, propane tanks, etc, etc...
There should be a white weight sticker usually inside a cupboard door that lists the actual weight empty, but as outfitted and delivered to the dealer. This is after any factory options...

I agree here, I just brought home my Toy Hauler yesterday. The advertised weight was 3460, when I went to look at it I asked the salesman how much it weighed, answer was 4700 or 4800lbs, I cannot remember for sure right now.

TallTexan · 04-25-2008, 07:41 PM

My opinion. You should be fine without the air bags. The Reese hitch is a good one and should allow you to keep your truck level fairly easy. I would keep your tanks empty except maybe 25 gallons in your fresh water tank. You can fill up after you get where you are going. Set up your equalizer hitch properly and go camping. I have pulled for a long time and my trailer is 32 ft long and weighs approx 7800 lbs. I have a CC with big tow and it pulls nicely. I have pulled on freeways and backroads and no problems. I do not drive fast. 60 mph is fast enough. Normally 55. The Titan has no problem pulling. The weak link has been the rear end and weak springs in the rear. You can always install a set of Roadmasters if you need a little more weight carrying capability. Make sure your trailer tires are at the right pressure. Have fun.

Shane06fl · 04-25-2008, 07:55 PM

Melissa if there is one thing we can all agree on is that you are maxing the truck out for sure. So you will need to be extra careful. get your tires set up and your hitch adjusted correctly with all your gear loaded. Do some driving around town to get use to the Electric brakes (you do have a brake controller right?).

Get that complete set up weighed, you could be over max. A good rule of thumb is only tow weight up to 85% of your GCWR. It's safety issue only and takes away the guessing if you do add some weight at some point, it gives wiggle room.

The biggest thing you have against you with not having the big tow pack is the gearing. You have the important stuff like the trany cooler. With the after market 7 pin connector and all the relays you should still be able to charge the TT batteries when the truck is running, but not 100% on that. You can always upgrade the mirrors and battery later. You can also increase your tow capacity by buying a new Axle Assembly with the 3.36 big tow gears and swap it out. Some have said they cost about $2100 from Nissan, not installed but any decent garage can do that or friend with know how. May or may not need to reset the ECU. This is way cheaper than buying a new truck and you have the full 9400lbs.

Good luck with your RVing. If you ever see a Silver CC Titan pulling a Keystone in Florida it could be us.

**HudsonValleyTitan** · 04-25-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melhow

Hi everyone, newbie to travel trailer towing here. Thanks in advance for your help.

My husband and I recently purchased a Keystone Hideout 23RKS and are looking forward to our first outing next weekend. Before we got on the road, I wanted to run the numbers that I came up with by the experienced towers here to see if I am on target.

The Hideout specs:

Dry weight 5320, box length 24 feet, hitch to bumper 28 feet 6 inches.

Titan, no Big Tow package, specs:

GVWR - 6422
Max Tow - 7400
Curb Weight (includes fuel and necessary fluids to run, according to dealer) - 4966
Payload capacity - 1440
Tongue Max - 740
Tire cargo load max - 2600
GCWR - 12,800

We have a class III U-Haul hitch receiver that is rated 10000 max tow and 1000 max tongue with WD.

Installed at dealer the Reese Dual Cam WD with 800# bars and Prodigy brake system.

Please check my figures.

In the truck:

Driver and Passenger - 360
Generators (2 Honda 2000's) - 100
My camera gear and husband's hunting stuff - 100
Hitch, assuming tongue weight 12% of loaded trailer - 750
Fiberglass topper - 200

Puts the truck at 6476, so 54 pounds over GVWR.

In the Trailer

2 20# propane tanks - 50
Battery - 50
Memory foam mattress topper - 50
Various Accessories (grill, chairs, table, interior do-dads) - 250
Personal Luggage - 400

Puts the trailer at 6150.

All in all, GCWR of 12,626.

I figure on long trips we can get the ice, groceries and firewood upon arrival. When dry camping, we can fill the water tank at the last stop.

On short trips, we can cut down the personal luggage and replace with food and ice. Again, fill the water at the last stop.

Does this sound correct and realistic to you?

I have to say, the drive home from the dealer on I-4 here in Tampa was white knuckle. Not a surprise, as we were probably loaded all wrong with an empty trailer but a dealer filled water tank, a WD hitch that the dealer set up that we have yet to adjust, and a truck bed full of gear and junk that we didn't unload prior to our TT delivery. Our next two purchases are going to be a set of LT tires for the truck and a nice set of Bilstein shocks.

There is a learning curve to towing, that is for sure.

Thanks again for you help and advice!

Melissa

The stock tires will do just fine. You'll tow that camper with ease. The only thing I'd change is the hitch. A class 3 is only rated up to 5000LBS. These guys are giving you optimum towing ideas...which are great ideas...just not absolutely necessary. Most important is to have the correct weight distributing hitch with sway control and have it set up correctly for your TT. You'll also need a good brake controller. How and where you store stuff in the TT is also important. You'll learn something new each time you tow and you'll make little changes as your learn. Have a fun and safe trip!

melhow · 04-25-2008, 10:10 PM

Thanks again TallTexan and Shane06fl - we will keep an eye out for you on the road! We have the 7-pin, and it does charge the battery. We'll give keeping it all under 85% of the GCVW a go, but lest us tossing out the fridge and the stove, I don't see it happening. The plan is to run without water for sure, get the Reese good, straight, and tight, and just take it easy.

Sounds like new tires should be the #1 priority, so we will be looking at LT's this week. I will also check out the axle upgrade shane0fl mentioned.

I think I need some help understanding the tow package - my understanding is that the main advantage is the lower axle ratio. Doesn't a lower axle ratio decrease the amount of driveshaft revolutions needed to turn the axle, making it less taxing on the transmission to get power with less need to use or stay in a higher gear using high RPM's (4th gear) in more challenging tow situations like incline and high altitude?

So how does a lower axle ratio affect tow weight capability on flat roads like here in FL when the need for incline tow power is not a huge factor? Not that we don't expect to tow where there are steep grades - in fact we plan on hitting Tennessee three times a year and plan on probably being in 4th the whole mountain part of the tow- but I guess I just can't calculate how the BT package adds up to 200 more pounds of tongue and 2000 more pounds of trailer due only to a lower gear ratio. I understand how it makes it easier to tow more weight, but not impossible (or dangerous) if you don't have the package. Help me understand cause it's not sinking in.

Thanks again so much!

Mel

melhow · 04-25-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HudsonValleyTitan

The stock tires will do just fine. You'll tow that camper with ease. The only thing I'd change is the hitch. A class 3 is only rated up to 5000LBS. These guys are giving you optimum towing ideas...which are great ideas...just not absolutely necessary. Most important is to have the correct weight distributing hitch with sway control and have it set up correctly for your TT. You'll also need a good brake controller. How and where you store stuff in the TT is also important. You'll learn something new each time you tow and you'll make little changes as your learn. Have a fun and safe trip!

Thanks HudsonValley - I thought the same thing about the hitch, as I saw on the hitch sticker the 5K tow max, but it also reads on the sticker that with a weight distributing system, it's good for 10,000 tow and 1000 tongue. I think I will call U-Haul tomorrow and verify. We have the Prodigy brake controller installed and dialed in, it seems to be VERY effective. We are impressed with that one. I agree with you, I think it is going to be a weight balancing learning curve for the first few trips. No more packing the kitchen sink (it's already packed!!!) for me.

Thanks again

mel

**loufish** · 04-25-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

I think I need some help understanding the tow package - my understanding is that the main advantage is the lower axle ratio. Doesn't a lower axle ratio decrease the amount of driveshaft revolutions needed to turn the axle, making it less taxing on the transmission to get power with less need to use or stay in a higher gear using high RPM's (4th gear) in more challenging tow situations like incline and high altitude?

So how does a lower axle ratio affect tow weight capability on flat roads like here in FL when the need for incline tow power is not a huge factor? Not that we don't expect to tow where there are steep grades - in fact we plan on hitting Tennessee three times a year and plan on probably being in 4th the whole mountain part of the tow- but I guess I just can't calculate how the BT package adds up to 200 more pounds of tongue and 2000 more pounds of trailer due only to a lower gear ratio. I understand how it makes it easier to tow more weight, but not impossible (or dangerous) if you don't have the package. Help me understand cause it's not sinking in.

A lower gear(numericly higher) increases how many times the driveshaft needs to spin to maintain any speed. Just like a 10 speed bicycle, when you go up hill you shift to a "lower" gear, it gets easier to pedal but you have to pedal twice as much...

It's not complicated, but there several things tied togather that go with towing and the lower tow gears...

The lower gears keeps the engine speed(RPM) up putting the engine closer to it's max torque RPM, makes it easier on the transmission, and because of more RPM the torque converter has a better chance of staying locked up(un-locked converters can put a lot of unwanted heat into the transmission) and will move more trans fluid thru the transmission's cooling system...

Keep it in 4th gear...and if you forget to turn on the "Tow Mode" don't lose any sleep, the Titans TM only rasies the shift pionts on 1st thru 3rd gear, after that it no effect...

Enjoy!

Shane06fl · 04-26-2008, 06:58 PM

I doubt you will have a problem with the gear ratio you have now, it's what a 2.94 so it's not a lot higher than the 3.36. Stay in fourth gear and watch your trany temp guage. when you get in the mountains you will need 3rd once in while, don't be afraid to let her rev just stay under the redline. The axle swap is just a suggestion and if your comfy with what you got and the truck does fine let it be. 65MPH is a good towing speed but less isn't bad either.

Yeah your well over the 85% and like I said that is rule of thumb not a must.

We will be In Tennessee 6/21-6/23 before heading over to North Carolina for a week.

The tow package is just that a package. It has some cool stuff that really makes towing a lot better. The mirrors rule and you don't get 100% of the how great they are until you drag a 28ft TT. The slightly upgraded battery, hitch and low final gear ratio is pretty much the tow package.

Enjoy!!

Shane06fl · 04-26-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melhow

Thanks HudsonValley - I thought the same thing about the hitch, as I saw on the hitch sticker the 5K tow max, but it also reads on the sticker that with a weight distributing system, it's good for 10,000 tow and 1000 tongue. I think I will call U-Haul tomorrow and verify. We have the Prodigy brake controller installed and dialed in, it seems to be VERY effective. We are impressed with that one. I agree with you, I think it is going to be a weight balancing learning curve for the first few trips. No more packing the kitchen sink (it's already packed!!!) for me.

Thanks again

mel

I didn't catch that but the class 3 hitch is to small for that TT. The WDH may be for 10,000lbs but the hitch on your truck is only 5000 pounds. May want to give Uhaul a call and find out why they put a hitch on your truck that won't even match the trucks tow rating.