Another dumb stereo question…

Clancy · 05-31-2005, 09:48 AM

Ok, so my truck has the 6-disc non RF system. The head unit works fine for my needs, and I don’t really want to though the time and hassle of buying and installing a new head unit, but I want better sound.

So I’m thinking that a simple upgrade of the speakers is all I want to do. I have an old set of Boston Acoustic 6x9’s I can slip in the doors to improve the sound. I would also buy a decent set of components and use the tweets in the dash and the other half in the back half-doors (KC) (I’m undecided on how I’ll wire the crossovers).

Since the factory speakers are 2 ohm, and my old BA’s and a new set of components would likely be 4 ohm, I’m cutting the power to the speakers in half and along with the power loss, It’ll also surely sound like crap. So now I’m thinking I need to add an amp as well. Nothing too serious – again, I don’t want to spend a mint, I just want a cleaner system. I’m thinking about the Apline ARP-F240 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-HZQreNl...rch=alpine+amp). I’ve seen it online for ~$135 or so and it’ll deliver 40 watts RMS to four channels and supports speaker level inputs.

And that’s my question – can I do speaker level inputs and still expect decent sound? Or should I use a line output converter (loc)?

I’ve never built/upgraded a system w/o doing the headunit too (and thus getting line-level outs), but the fact of the matter is I’m just getting too old to be sinking tons of money into a car audio anymore…

Justintoxicated · 05-31-2005, 10:07 AM

Unfortunately the stock HU is crap. Lots of features that are pointless because it has no pre-outs. You can use an LOC but I hear it will not sound good. not for the amount of money your spending on the aftermarket parts.

And it will surely sound much worse trying to run those speakers off about 5-7 watts RMS fromteh stock HU.

JL audio has a cleansweep that can convert the signal properly but it's about $400. There are a few others that are cheaper but also expensive.

Basicaly it is best to live with the stock system or upgrade the HU, unless you really want to keep that factory look then go with the cleansweep.

eakes · 05-31-2005, 10:50 AM

CleanSweep is overkill, you don't really need it. You do need LOCs ($35 for a 4-ch unit) to feed the amp input. Don't use the speaker level inputs on the amp since they normally connect one side of all the channels together. Depending on the speakers, 30 to 50 watts RMS per channel will be fine to provide decent sound quality that is a vast improvement over the stock configuration.
Do get the Scoscee NN03 and NN03R adapter kits to make the connections between the factory harness and the HU. One plugs into the radio, the other into the chassis wiring harness. They will allow easy access to channel outputs of the HU and inputs to the speaker wiring without cutting or splicing into the chassis wiring harness.

Justintoxicated · 05-31-2005, 11:24 AM

I guess you could do that I just heard LOC's suck because the output is already so crappy and low powered from the stock HU, so you be boosting a poor signal at best. Never tried it myself though.

Clancy · 05-31-2005, 01:04 PM

Thanks guys - I read about the cleansweep and agree that it would be the way to go if I was willing to drop $1000 (amps, speaker & cleansweep) into my system, but I'm not. $300-400 is more my range and it looks like I can do that with a 4channel loc, a decent amp, and a decent pair of components...

Edit - and I already planned on the Scoscee connectors as well - but thanks for the model #'s

As an aside, what kills me are the dumba$$es that drop $2000+ into their stereo and then use it to listen to a 128 kbps mp3's. What's the point?

bestatchess · 05-31-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clancy

Thanks guys - I read about the cleansweep and agree that it would be the way to go if I was willing to drop $1000 (amps, speaker & cleansweep) into my system, but I'm not. $300-400 is more my range and it looks like I can do that with a 4channel loc, a decent amp, and a decent pair of components...

Edit - and I already planned on the Scoscee connectors as well - but thanks for the model #'s

As an aside, what kills me are the dumba$$es that drop $2000+ into their stereo and then use it to listen to a 128 kbps mp3's. What's the point?

www.altomobile.com is alleging they will have a UI-4 for about $100 at some point.

128 kbps mp3s don't sound that much worse than CDs, particularly if you have done alot of shooting with high powered rifles. I think the main point is having 10,000 songs w/o fumbling with 700 CDs.

*Squid* · 05-31-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bestatchess

www.altomobile.com is alleging they will have a UI-4 for about $100 at some point.

128 kbps mp3s don't sound that much worse than CDs, particularly if you have done alot of shooting with high powered rifles. I think the main point is having 10,000 songs w/o fumbling with 700 CDs.

Remember that not all CD players are the same. Cd players use a DAC (Digital to analog convertor) which converts the digital 1s and 0s into an analog (Sinewave) signal which is sent to the amps and or the speakers. If the DAC and all the electroncs from the DAC are crap (Amps, wiring, grounds, etc.) then you end up with crappy sounding CD's.

Justintoxicated · 05-31-2005, 08:51 PM

Ill be putting 2g's into mine (hell a navigation system that some put in is over 2 g's)and will be playing mp3's and I ll gaurantee it will sound Noticably better than a system using LOC's from an already weak signal from the stock HU. You will lose more quality this way than compressing a CD digitaly. But it should sound better than stock at higher volumes)

Hell I took it to a sterio sho and askthem how much to matt eh whole truck and they recomended I do it myself because it would cost $800+ jsut for sound deadener install.

I also agree real CD's sound better, but I ususaly use variable bit rate compression on my discs and it would take a 2000 system to really begin to notice the difference in some cases.

Let us know how much better than stock it ends up though, I thought about doing this route myself but after spending a fortune on wires and Noise & Vibration dampening I decided that it would be like putting a 4 cylinder motor into a truck the size of a titan.

Last time I called alto-mobile about hte UI/4 they told me there was a mistake with the origional pricing and it was going to be more expensive the next time. I gave up on waiting for it though. I think it is going to be more than $100 from now on, but I do not know how much.

Good point about the DAC's squid, another reason I did not buy a new Alpine (last years was WAY better). I'm pretty sure the new alpin uses 1 bit dacs when you can get a clarion (which are real good this year instead of crap like in the past) or eclipse that uses 24 bit dacs and have high pre-out voltages 4-8V's out. of course bit's arenteverything....

Clancy · 06-01-2005, 07:39 AM

I actually have a decent single din Alpine headunit (24bit dac) I took out of my taco before I traded it, but I didn't want to go through the hassles of changing all that out the hu too. Maybe I will. Or maybe, when I get the amp hooked up, I'll temporarily connect the Alpine hu and compare the two side by side and see how bad the stock hu really is.

I'm a late comer on mp3's. I had a deep hatred for them initially. I've finally relented and ripped a bunch of cd's so I could listen to them on my Palm. They sound pretty good on headphones, but if I run them through the aux jack in the truck, or God-Forbid, run them through my home stereo the difference in quality is absolutely astounding. I even tried feeding my home stereo directly from the sound-card preouts on my computer. Either way, it was horrific.

Try it at home. Rip a mp3 (128, 256 I don't care which). Then play the original CD and the mp3 at the same time, switching your amp between sources. If you can't hear a difference, then your hearing is either so bad that you're wasting your money on stereo equipment, OR you have really bad stereo equipment.

*Squid* · 06-01-2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clancy

I actually have a decent single din Alpine headunit (24bit dac) I took out of my taco before I traded it, but I didn't want to go through the hassles of changing all that out the hu too. Maybe I will. Or maybe, when I get the amp hooked up, I'll temporarily connect the Alpine hu and compare the two side by side and see how bad the stock hu really is.

I'm a late comer on mp3's. I had a deep hatred for them initially. I've finally relented and ripped a bunch of cd's so I could listen to them on my Palm. They sound pretty good on headphones, but if I run them through the aux jack in the truck, or God-Forbid, run them through my home stereo the difference in quality is absolutely astounding. I even tried feeding my home stereo directly from the sound-card preouts on my computer. Either way, it was horrific.

Try it at home. Rip a mp3 (128, 256 I don't care which). Then play the original CD and the mp3 at the same time, switching your amp between sources. If you can't hear a difference, then your hearing is either so bad that you're wasting your money on stereo equipment, OR you have really bad stereo equipment.

Your last statement is what my 6 cd changer in my truck is, really bad equipment because the CD of 3 doors down sounds like crap but the MP3 that I created from the CD sounds great from my Ipod thru the fm tuner. P.O.S D.A.C. is why.

Clancy · 06-01-2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squid

Your last statement is what my 6 cd changer in my truck is, really bad equipment because the CD of 3 doors down sounds like crap but the MP3 that I created from the CD sounds great from my Ipod thru the fm tuner. P.O.S D.A.C. is why.

Point taken. I guess I'll have to Install my old Alpine HU too...

*Squid* · 06-01-2005, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clancy

Point taken. I guess I'll have to Install my old Alpine HU too...

How do CDs sound with yours? Maybe I have a bad HU? It's already been replaced once.

Clancy · 06-01-2005, 08:12 AM

My CD's don't sound nearly as bad as the mp3's through the aux jack. They sound better than the FM radio, but only barely since the stock speakers pretty much suck.

JLTD · 06-01-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eakes

CleanSweep is overkill, you don't really need it. You do need LOCs ($35 for a 4-ch unit) to feed the amp input. Don't use the speaker level inputs on the amp since they normally connect one side of all the channels together.

You do not have an understanding of what CleanSweep does (or what goes on in an OEM system to warrant it's need) or a firm grasp of how the speaker level inputs work on an amplifier. If your amp has high level in, it's a much better option than an LOC.
LOC's do nothing to compensate for DSP which is there to make the cheap OEM speakers sound decent.
CleanSweep is for anyone who wants to upgrade their audio systems and have the sound improve. When you consider that the unit has four 30 band EQs, high level in, aux in, and an 8 Volt line driver you'll find that it's much cheaper that all these items purchased individually (about $800 cheaper).
You could solve all the problems CleanSweep was created to address if you could replace the radio. On many vehicles, this is not an option and is no cheaper.

Justintoxicated · 06-01-2005, 01:43 PM

MP3's from my computer hooked directly into my sterio sound the same as CD's played on my computer hooked directly into the sterio. I don't have a fancy sterio but it is decent and the SQ is pretty good. Maybe the your PC has a crappy sound card or the mp3's are not recorded correctly or something I dunno man...

There is some differnece on some songs, but nothing nearly as bad as Fm radio would sound in comparison.

let us know how much better the Alpine sounds.