Focal Utopia 165W

[Justintoxicated]

Originally Posted by lizardking

Acutally when it comes to SQ your not going to hear a audible difference between a A/B and a Class D amp when running subs. Most people can't even run a A/B amp for subs pushing big wattage unless you have a Nuclear reactor for power...lol... A/B amps draw a lot of power. Now if you plan on running a couple subs off lets say 200 watts for the sub off a A/B amp then you would be fine. I wouldn't go much more then that without upgrading your alternator to at least 220amp. Get a good quality A/B amp for the full range and then a Class D amp for your subs. Now if your going to compete that's a different story.

I like that DLS amp Justintoxicated posted.. But the current draw can be 140amps, add that with a decent mono amp or another class A/B amp and your going to need a new charging system....lol...

Lizard, he said he was running an orion amp to his Components not his subs.
And yes you can hear a difference between a A/B to good components with subwoofer running and a Class D amp to both, otherwise that would not say much for your components.

Depending on the subs and install you can also hear a noticable difference with a A/B amp like the DLS. This is agruable, but a SQ sub can sound more clean with an A/B amp. That DLS amp probably pulls the 140 amps when running 1 ohm bridged, but I would not use it for subs either I would be using it for my components. Supposedly the dual mono creates a better seperation for your components.

I have also been reading that it is often arguable as far as effiency, and that towards the high output range many Class D amps are only 10% more efficient than a newer high end A/B making the same power. New Charging System = HO alternator and heavy duty wires, But If you can afford to run a couple of the A3's you can afford a HO alternator hehe.

[lizardking]

Class D amps should never be used on a full range comps/coaxials... I believe Richard Clark "God of car audio" proved that you can't tell audible differences between amps it's impossible. He proved this during his "amp challenge" I thought. If your going to run all A/B amps (High Power) will have to upgrade your charging system if you want any potential out of the money spent on the A/B amps. There are a lot of myths about car audio and Richard Clark loves to prove that most things are a joke....like speaker wiring and patch cables.. Read up on Richard Clark and his tests the guy is the Godfather of car audio and will explain things in science jargon. I have yet to hear any difference in sound between and A/B amp or a Class D on any sub installation and that includes competition setups.. I'm not trying to argue so don't think I am, I used to have a lot of mis information on car audio and in the last year I have seen the light....LOL Remember the human ear has limits and everyone will hear things differently.

Another thing to consider is that A/B DLS amp you mentioned had a max output of 140amps. The Titan has only a 130 amp alternator and thats peak at max RPM real world it's probably about 65-80 amps running down the road with your A/C on... You start adding more then one A/B amp, especially one pushing subs, your going to need a bigger alternator with high output at idle and high output in the 2000 RPM range.. Just don't want to see anyone kill there alternator...

I believe and you can check with RC, if you can prove audible differences between amps he will pay you $10,000. Even the man from JL Audio was apart of the test and couldn't believe how wrong he was when it comes to audible differences.

[whistler]

JUSTIN- Yeah the Orion AMP is an A/B amp, I think it might just be the songs or something with the burned mp3 cd. Its not all the time so I think its just with in the music.

[lizardking]

Is it a 2 channel amp or 4 channel amp? If your only hearing it on burned CD's that might be the issue.. What headunit you running? and what are your HPF and LPF set at? Are you running an EQ or have adjustable bands? I have heard the utopia's can be a bit bright on 4000hz range..

[Justintoxicated]

Well I have heard from several people that they COULD tell a difference from running subs on A/B amps and Class D amps both with high quality amps.

If the sub is accurate enough you should be able to tell some difference.

Most competitions have setups for SPL not SQ, those kinds of woofers I doubt you would be able to tell any difference. If there is no audiable difference then why not use class D for the Components?

It's not JUST the DLS amp, any high output amp is capable of pulling nearly as many amps, even class D they are not necessarily ALL that much more efficient. Besides that amp is MADE for components not subs like I said, but it has a huge and true damping factor and will make your components sound awesome. It's not going to pull 140 amps for 100 watts x 2 more than any other amp would.

I doubt with my install in a downfiring box I will be able to tell audiable difference, but then again how can I prove it, just because I might hear them all he has to say is it sounds the same. How are you supposed to Prove audiable difference? I have sceen the topic come up before, and people SWEAR they can hear a noticable difference, and they have NO reason to lie. But I'm talking SQ woofers not those made for SPL or SQL.

Hell I have swapped amps for my subs before and heard audiable differences!

[lizardking]

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Well I have heard from several people that they COULD tell a difference from running subs on A/B amps and Class D amps both with high quality amps.

If the sub is accurate enough you should be able to tell some difference.

Most competitions have setups for SPL not SQ, those kinds of woofers I doubt you would be able to tell any difference. If there is no audiable difference then why not use class D for the Components?

It's not JUST the DLS amp, any high output amp is capable of pulling nearly as many amps, even class D they are not necessarily ALL that much more efficient. Besides that amp is MADE for components not subs like I said, but it has a huge and true damping factor and will make your components sound awesome. It's not going to pull 140 amps for 100 watts x 2 more than any other amp would.

I doubt with my install in a downfiring box I will be able to tell audiable difference, but then again how can I prove it, just because I might hear them all he has to say is it sounds the same. How are you supposed to Prove audiable difference? I have sceen the topic come up before, and people SWEAR they can hear a noticable difference, and they have NO reason to lie. But I'm talking SQ woofers not those made for SPL or SQL.

Hell I have swapped amps for my subs before and heard audiable differences!

Read up on the Richard Clark amp challenge it explains it all.. If your not going to fire subs with the DLS you will be fine. If you plan on running two Class A/B amps that are capable of real power then you will need to upgrade your alternator..thats just plain logic... If your running Class A/B amps with a set of comps at 100 watts your fine just keep your sub amp Class D unless your running 200 watts for subs then A/B would be fine. But even then if you start pushing your system your going to find out the alternator won't take it and you can watch your voltage drop fast.. Some people are convinced they can hear audible differences but they can't.. Class A/B amps today are still not efficient enough at lease none that I've seen that don't cost $$$$. I'm not trying to discourage you just want to make sure you have a kickass setup that won't cause you problems...

If you want to get solid advice from the best in the business then go to the www.carsound.com forums... Don't rely on the guys from sounddomain, carstereo.com and 12volt to answer questions.. I have learned a lot from talking to the guys at carsound.. Richard Clark and David Navone are members and mods there and are considered GODS.. They both use pure science in there tests..It's pretty amazing...

[Justintoxicated]

I'm already a member thanks!

I could most likely drive my subs fine with teh A/B too cause they are only going to be 300 watt Kodas,

[lizardking]

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

I'm already a member thanks!

I could most likely drive my subs fine with teh A/B too cause they are only going to be 300 watt Kodas,

I'm sure you will be fine with that setup, your probably not someone who likes the bass to hit so hard that it makes you sick...LOL... I have heard those DLS amps have huge power supplies and require a lot of power.. Read a review on the DLS A6 somewhere but I can't remember where. The guy loved the amp but warned on its power consumption.. I remember when I had my Titan and was pushing the subs I have now and boy did the Titan not like that... But that was because I was lucky to get 65 amps out of the alternator... I even did the Big 3... With my Toyota I will find out when I get my W7's installed and the new JL Audio 450/4 amp installed for the comps... I contacted Dominick for a alternator upgrade already...lol... I'm even running a 35 Farad cap but I'm still not sold on the cap thing, it has really low ESR rating but still. I know it did help smooth out the voltage verified that with DMM. I also like the idea of being able to monitor voltages and the cap I have allows me to do that... I can only imagine trying to run A/B amps with my setup the Toyota would shut off at 1/2 volume....lol....


I will say this when the man from JL Audio admits there is no way to tell audible differences between amps after being proven wrong by RC, that says a lot...

[Justintoxicated]

Ditch the capacitor, they actualy can add more stain to your alternator, they only work well when you already have a HO charging system.

I'll probably only upgrade my alternator if mine breaks, but I might just do the big 3 and the yellow top battery...I have alot of extra 1/0ga left.

How did you upgrade the alternator power wire to the Battery?

I upgraded the 2 ground wires already but I think I'm goign to shave some more paint off the chasis ground.

I have a feeling the Kodas will hit pretty strong after all having 2 of them gives more excursion than a bramah..

[lizardking]

Having two subs over one will give you more cone area that's for sure and should move more air (bass). I thought about ditching the cap, but I acutally think its helped me in that I have NO and I mean NO dimming lights. If I wasn't running the amount of power I have, then I probably would try it without it. I remember when I had my Titan that I didn't have the cap and it was hell on my electrical system. So far having the cab helped by keeping my voltages more stable. Amps are nothing but caps if you look inside one so they do help, its just how much really do the they help or hinder is the controversial question. As long as your using a high quality cap with ESR rating in the 1.0 mOhm range or lower your okay. My voltages with the cap stay extremely steady even when I'm listening at a normal volume. Caps smooth out voltages thats a known fact but the conterversiol part is do they acutally supply power when needed. All I know is when the bass hits my voltages don't drop to 11-12 volts like they did on my Titan. I haven't seen the voltage drop any lower then 13.1 yet since the cap install. Yellow top isn't a bad upgrade I did mine but remember your battery has nothing to do with the audio with the vehicle running. Your voltage supply from your alternator has to drop below the batterys voltage before the battery acutally comes into play. RC, says the BIG 3 is a joke and doesn't do anything and OHMS LAW doesn't support it. I thought it helped on my Titan so I did it on my Toyota too....who knows....

[smoketitan]

im still suprised you like the utopias over the k2p mid


id like to see the 4runner too

[Justintoxicated]

I believe in teh Big 3, it should definately help as it reduces resistance and allows for a larger maximum flow, I'm really not agreeing with this RC guy am I? I mean wth is the point in running 1/0ga when the power running to that big wire is only 4ga? Rather, it can limit the amount of current pulled from the alternator and force the battery to deliver instead.

Ohms law does not support it? Sure it does, in fact it's all about reducing the resistance in the lines that deliver power to your system. Also in real life things tend to not work exactly like they do on paper. Think of it like Pouring water out of a bucket vs pouring water out of a soda bottle, obviously the bucket has less resistance and allows the juice to flow more. It's basic stuff nothing complex there.

If V=IR then I=V/R so of course when eliminating resistance your going to increase current.

As for the cap it's not doing what you think. it may stop your headlihts from dimming but if that is what it is being used for it's probably putting even more strain on your alternator. Think about it, the Bass hits and drains the cap instantly, now your amp not only has to supply the amp's power but it also has to store more power back into the cap. Now if you have a good charging system, the alternator can supply plenty of power to the Cap, andthe cap can provide a power a little quicker when your subs hit.
Caps are made for storing power that is used instantaneously and replenished just as fast. Thats why they can smooth out power.

I have used capacitors to smooth out voltage when converting fro AC to DC with rectifiers because AC power is unclean and inconsistant and the cap helps provide some constant juice while the power is rectified. otherwise you would have a less consistant less clean DC signal. but used in electronics that are doing any kind of switching vs runnign the line to your amp is another story.

it might be working for you thats great, but my point is tehy ca actualy put more strain on your system if your system is asking for more voltage than your Electrical system can deliver.

[lizardking]

The use of caps have always been debateable and probably will continue to be debateable. It's like RC says it's not that they don't work you just need a low ESR cap but they usually don't last long.. Cap's are used on every electronic equipment form AC to DC sources. As the cap putting a drain on my system maybe if I was running a 1 farad cap. But you fail to realize that I'm running a 35 Farad cap. My bass will not use that much power before it can recharge. Are caps a waste? It depend what you want to use one for and the application its intended for. Caps smooth out voltage which helps in reducing heat in your amps as well. One of the worst things for a amp is to have fluctuating voltages from 10-14 volts. You need to have as much consistency in your voltages as possible.. For the average guy with less then 1000 watts I would not worry about having a cap. Read up on the Big 3 he proved it wrong with ohms law, I'm not saying he's right but you or I can't change it. If you want not to have dimming lights then you would need smaller wire...The bigger the wire the more current the headlights can draw, can't argue that its facts... Headlights draw a lot of power and the BIG 3 won't do anything to prevent it. It will actually help to make it worse since power flows from the path of leaset resistance. I made the mistake and upgraded my battery to the yellow top which did nothing and does nothing... I also did the Big 3 which don't work, I made myself believe it did, but it don't. We can add all the 00 guage wire you want and its not going to do anything to improve our systems.. Speaker wire, buy the cheapest you can get. Patch cables, buy a cheap sheilded set and thats it.. Amp's, no audible differences in amps its been proven and proven and proven. We can debate about car audio until the end of time... We tend to believe our ears and not the science behind it. By the way I don't like RC, I think he's irrogant and be littles people on the forum because we don't understand Science the way he does...

How can we argue with a man that offers $10,000 to prove him wrong. He knows we can't, because we can't argue with Science.

Here's some quotes from the Science Man himself:

"jeff-------holy cow-------if your statement were true how could we ever start a car with jumper cables???------what are you thinking???----------a fully charged/stabilized lead acid battery has a potential of 12.8 volts-------DC sources in parallel will always result in current flowing from the source of highest potential first followed by lowest esr------thats why when your engine is running all the power comes from the alternator till it is exhausted-------only when the voltage of the alt drops to the float charge of the batt (ie 12.8v) does any current flow from the batt--------parallel a dead battery to a charged batt and it will take a long time for it to hurt the charged one---------ever see a battery charger that only output 12.8 volts????--------it would not be a very good seller since it would take forever to charge a battery---------even a cheapie can output 13.5 to 14 or more-----even the open circuit voltage of wallwart trickle chargers is in the 13.5v-----the reason lights dim is because the brighteness from the lights varies greatly from 12.8v to 14v--------since power goes up by the square of the voltage there is a large difference in bulb brightness from the regulator setpoint of most alternators (13.5-14.5v)to the float point of a batt---------most alternators at low speeds can't output much current so as soon as the stereo bursts the voltage drops to the batt voltage--------this would happen if there were a dozen batteries in the car since any number of fully charged, paralled batteries will not exceed 12.8v...............RC"

" see you have adopted my suv acronym as a tag line-------at any rate think about it------no amount of batteries will help the situation since no matter how many batteries you have they will not provide power till the voltage has dropped to 12.8------at that point the lights have dimmed--------its up the the alternator and if the system is really large no alternator is gonna provide more than a couple hundred amps--------in theory a cap might help but not for long since it will drop rather fast------problem with caps is the low esr ones don't last long and the large capacity ones can't deliver much peak current---------only sure fire solution for rock steady lights????-------1-put a voltage regulator on the lights (jacobs accuvolt would be ideal) 2- add lots of batteries and disconnect the alternator (dumb) 3- put an adjustable regulator on the alternator and set it closer to 12.8 so the delta from the set point to 12.8 is less (should reduce the dimming problem at the same amount it reduces stereo performance)----------------there are a few other possibilities but none of them make any sense either-------face it--------if the car has a big stereo that draws a lot of power and the set point of the alternator is high the lights will dim and there is little practical approach you can take so just accept it............RC"

"wow--------the nonsense NEVER ends--------poor logic and bad measurements by folks that don't understand what they are measuring, doesn't prove anything---------upgrading the ground wire from the alternator------most alternators have a case to engine block connection that would be hard to improve on with a simple piece of wire---------as for all those dimming headlights that suddenly burn brighter cause someone runs a larger wire to their stereo------thats TOTAL nonsense-------i don't fail to agree that the stereos voltage might not be more stable but the its gonna make the lights dim even more----and the voltage at the alternator is gonna fluctuate more than ever---------anybody besides Rob want to try to figure the logic in that BEFORE I explain it?????????...........RC"

"halo--------there is an old saying "ignorance is bliss"----------in your bliss i am confident you believe your amp is running cooler due to the larger wire-------but it just ain't so no matter how strongly you believe it--------if you want to continue with your flawed belief please feel free BUT if you want to experience an educated slant on the issue i suggest you do a little scientific evaluation of your results---------the scientific method would suggest that you reverse your test by substituting a smaller wire and or "screwed connections" to see if the conditions repeat with no other changes--------until you can duplicate the exact conditions several times and only change one thing at a time can you be sure of the cause/effect----------and i am certain you will find your amp doesn't run cooler because more power (read energy--ie heat potential) is able to enter its circuitry................RC"


"its true that the block/chassis ground usually has to be made with additional wires due to composite engine/tranny mounts------but those wires are suprisingly robust-----they may not look very large but they are SHORT-------compared to the element in a 200 amp fuse, they look GIANT in comparison-------anyway the real funny part is the belief that the larger wire to the stereo will help the voltage at the headlights be more stable--------this is TOTALLY backwards!!!!!-------the larger the wire to the stereo, the more power it can suck from the batt/alt-------if elimination of dimming headlights is what we want we should run a itty-bitty wire to the stereo-------now i'm not suggesting we run little power wires but i am saying that larger wire to the stereo is never gonna make the voltage at the source more stable-------likewise it is not gonna make the amp run cooler--------the more power the amp can source the hotter it will run--------an amp is an inanimate object with no work ethic-------if it is starved for power it doesn't "work harder to make up"--------it simply produces less output consequently, less HEAT---------and running a giant wire from the alt to the battery is totally silly--------the tenth of a volt or so that might be gained would have virtually NO effect on the battery or stereo---------and no amount of ignorance or flawed measurements or idiotic conclusions will change that fact..............RC"

[Justintoxicated]

First off your Alternator does not Draw Current it makes it.

Second of all all your power comes from the same source wire from the alternator.

So if your running 8 ga wire and it is limiting the current getting larger wire CAN help prevent your headlight from dimming

Ohms law Proves this. If your alternator is making more current than the wire can provide then it is going to limit your current law.

Wether or not your headlights are the path of least resistance your limited to this total power comiong from the wire from alternator. If you upgrade the wire you upgrade the total output from the alternator that can be achieved by reducing the resistance. There is no way that using larger wire is going to make your headlights dim worse, that would only be the case if they were plugged directly into the alternator, which of course they are NOT, then it might find there is less resistance in the 0ga than in the small wire to your lights which would cause them to dim more. This is not the case so it makes Absolutly no sense.

If your amps are pulling current away from the headlights and you provide more total power by upgrading the power wire from the alternator, then you might jsut quench their thirst, or at least provide some extra juice which means stealing less from the headlights.

Now he might be correct about running 1/0 ga to your amps but the thing is, if you need 1/0ga then you need it running too small of a wire will use more power and can catch on fire AND starve your amps but yes it could potentialy make your headlights dim more. Fact is if your headlights are dimming then you need a better alternator, but I guess yo could starve your amps to compensate.

This guy sounds like a moron to me... It's simple BASIC physics...

Wheres my $10,000?

This is the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

"wow--------the nonsense NEVER ends--------poor logic and bad measurements by folks that don't understand what they are measuring, doesn't prove anything---------upgrading the ground wire from the alternator------most alternators have a case to engine block connection that would be hard to improve on with a simple piece of wire---------as for all those dimming headlights that suddenly burn brighter cause someone runs a larger wire to their stereo------thats TOTAL nonsense-------i don't fail to agree that the stereos voltage might not be more stable but the its gonna make the lights dim even more----and the voltage at the alternator is gonna fluctuate more than ever---------anybody besides Rob want to try to figure the logic in that BEFORE I explain it?????????...........RC"


BTW Running the 0ga ground from the battery made my truck idle quieter. I guess it's nonse too but it has cured the ticking on MANY peoples Titans. Where is my 10,000.

[Justintoxicated]

I just read this part also LMAO

"and running a giant wire from the alt to the battery is totally silly--------the tenth of a volt or so that might be gained would have virtually NO effect on the battery or stereo---------and no amount of ignorance or flawed measurements or idiotic conclusions will change that fact..............RC"

The idea is not to increase the voltage, it is to increase the current. And to reduce the Resistance. Where did this guy learn his physics?