observation on brakes

juma · 06-13-2004, 02:59 PM

That mush feeling is gonna be tough to fix. I think it is flex in the system and if you wanta seem the main source, look at that 18 inch brake line feeding the rear axle. That long fat piece of rubber is gonna make the system mushy forever unless replaced with a braided steel teflon coated line. It will be expensive too...juma

Stomper4x4 · 07-22-2004, 09:37 AM

It might not be such a bad idea to upgrade the brake lines. While your at it throw in some 3 caliper pinchers up front:-) That should boost the stopping power.

PHOEBISIS · 07-22-2004, 11:17 AM

STOMPER4X4-What is a 3 caliper pincher?What are the front brakes-2 or 4 piston calipers-would three means 6 piston calipers?Anyone make a bolt on kit like that?Thanks,Charlie

juma · 07-22-2004, 11:41 AM

just found out today some info and I'm making plans. www.egrbrakes.com will make stainless steel braided teflon lined brake hose for $189 a set. they need a pattern so i will have to buy a front an rear hose to send them to work from. these will be dot approved lines and tested to 16000 pounds pressure - pretty darn good. we are not gonna be able to buy these cheap from earls or russell because there isn't enough titans to make it worth their while. anyone who wants to join in on the investment in stock hoses to use as patterns is welcome. It will be about 30-40 bux total. juma

z3axv · 07-22-2004, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juma

just found out today some info and I'm making plans. www.egrbrakes.com will make stainless steel braided teflon lined brake hose for $189 a set. they need a pattern so i will have to buy a front an rear hose to send them to work from. these will be dot approved lines and tested to 16000 pounds pressure - pretty darn good. we are not gonna be able to buy these cheap from earls or russell because there isn't enough titans to make it worth their while. anyone who wants to join in on the investment in stock hoses to use as patterns is welcome. It will be about 30-40 bux total. juma

I'm interested, how much do you need from each of us?

juma · 07-22-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z3axv

I'm interested, how much do you need from each of us?

well...10 bux from 4 of us and I will buy and send the hoses to california. I'm also gonna get front and rear bleed screws and send to speedbleeder.com so I can get those too. It really makes it easy for one guy put on the hoses and bleed the air out plus you can change brake fluid every year by yourself. I've emailed jaime for the parts prices and will order as soon as he gets back to me. so it you want in, and it would be a help, let me know by PM and you can mail or paypal. I will take up the slack till some others chime in. juma

Speed-Freak · 07-22-2004, 05:29 PM

Stillin/Brake Pros is already working to have Goodrich tool up to make Titan/Armada stainless brake line sets. Also, Stoptech has stainless lines on thier big brake package for the front.

May want to call these companies and see how far out they are from having stuff on hand.

Also, the brake system problems are not because of the lines. A Corvette has "rubber" hoses and stops just fine. Adding the stailess lines to our current brake setups would probablt make the problems worse. I had a Passat the I did stainless lines and Mintex red box pads on with DOT 5 fluid. Warped my stock rotors in just a couple months. Just changing the lines on our trucks and running DOT 4 or 5 fluid will probably make the system hetup/fade faster because of the increased clamping forces and reduced clampping force drop as the brakes are applied.

Persoanlly it still feels like heat fade. Brakes are really good and grabby till you get a bunch of slow stops in them or one real good 60-0 hard stop. Then they are mush till the thing sits. Just the same as what my Passat was.

SF

juma · 07-22-2004, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

Stillin/Brake Pros is already working to have Goodrich tool up to make Titan/Armada stainless brake line sets. Also, Stoptech has stainless lines on thier big brake package for the front.

May want to call these companies and see how far out they are from having stuff on hand.

Also, the brake system problems are not because of the lines. A Corvette has "rubber" hoses and stops just fine. Adding the stailess lines to our current brake setups would probablt make the problems worse. I had a Passat the I did stainless lines and Mintex red box pads on with DOT 5 fluid. Warped my stock rotors in just a couple months. Just changing the lines on our trucks and running DOT 4 or 5 fluid will probably make the system hetup/fade faster because of the increased clamping forces and reduced clampping force drop as the brakes are applied.

Persoanlly it still feels like heat fade. Brakes are really good and grabby till you get a bunch of slow stops in them or one real good 60-0 hard stop. Then they are mush till the thing sits. Just the same as what my Passat was.

SF

could probably call a lot more companies but the egr guys will do it now for a fair price so for me its "why wait?" corvettes stop fine but stop quicker the SS hoses. I wouldn't touch DOT5 fluid ever after my one round with it. ATE superblue dot 4 is the way. on a hard stop that you will be able to do with hoses and dot 4, it will heat more. but, the much higher boiling point of dot 4 fluid will prevent it from fading. everyone had ideas but we won't know if something will work till we try. my experience is SS brake lines make a world of difference and big improvement. dot 4 fluid is a big improvement too. I am gonna try it. if it doesn't work, I'll go back. juma

rkawski · 07-22-2004, 06:57 PM

There are already SS lines for the Titan/Armada available. You can get them from Greg Vogel at Mossy Performance. I will be installing the first set on my Titan this weekend. These are made by Crown and are each tested to 4000psi and are DOT approved. They are teflon wrapped in Kevlar then Stainless steel and then finally a shrink wrap.

The writeup on the SS lines is viewable here http://www.nissanperformancemagazine.com

I have Crown lines on one of my cars and they are quality pieces. If you are wondering why there are 6 lines in the picture that is because there are 6 rubber brake lines on the VDC equipped Titans. Titans w/o VDC still have 5 rubber lines. Quality has SS lines for VDC and Non VDC Titans and many other vehicles.

Contact infor for Greg Vogel is:
Mossy Nissan
3535 College Blvd.
Oceanside, CA 92056
www.mossyperformance.com
gregv@mossy.com
Tel: 866-556-6779

rkawski · 07-22-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

Also, the brake system problems are not because of the lines. A Corvette has "rubber" hoses and stops just fine. Adding the stailess lines to our current brake setups would probablt make the problems worse.

Now you just said it's not because of the lines then you say it will make it worse? SS lines will do nothing but change pedal feel as instead of the rubber hose flexing all the pressure applied will go towards pushing the pads into the rotors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

I had a Passat the I did stainless lines and Mintex red box pads on with DOT 5 fluid. Warped my stock rotors in just a couple months.

This had nothing to do with the lines or the fluid. The pads most likely heated the rotors up more causing them to warp. The fact is if the rotors are of good material and *sized* properly for the vehicle it's pretty hard to warp rotors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

Just changing the lines on our trucks and running DOT 4 or 5 fluid will probably make the system hetup/fade faster because of the increased clamping forces and reduced clampping force drop as the brakes are applied.

Better fluid will prevent fade from the fluid boiling it won't change clamping force, nor will the lines.

juma · 07-23-2004, 02:17 AM

rkawski - I differ with you slightly. SS hoses will shorten stopping distances slightly because they allow quicker action ... no pump up of the hoses before pad apply. all this happens in nano-seconds but it does make a performance difference. juma

juma · 07-23-2004, 09:26 AM

rkawski's recommendation looks good. I am gonna order them:

$155 the set of 5, I have them in stock. They are made by Crown Performance. They are Teflon, Kevlar, protective coating, stainless, clear shrink. DOT approved.

Please let me know…

Thanks,

Greg V

800.229.2292

"Speed is money,

Speed-Freak · 07-23-2004, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkawski

Now you just said it's not because of the lines then you say it will make it worse? SS lines will do nothing but change pedal feel as instead of the rubber hose flexing all the pressure applied will go towards pushing the pads into the rotors.

This had nothing to do with the lines or the fluid. The pads most likely heated the rotors up more causing them to warp. The fact is if the rotors are of good material and *sized* properly for the vehicle it's pretty hard to warp rotors.

Better fluid will prevent fade from the fluid boiling it won't change clamping force, nor will the lines.

Sure, pushing pistons, to the pads, to the rotors harder makes the system heatup faster.
Yes, the Mintex pads caused the rotors to warp because they created much higher temps on the stock rotors. I never said the lines caused the rotors to warp. I said I changes to Mintex pads, stainless lines and ATE Blue DOT 5 fluid, and those changes cause the rotors to warpe in only a couple months.

rkawski, do you think stainless lines and better DOT4 or DOT5 fluid will help people that are having the substantial brake system problems?
Such as people who have warped rotors on thier Titans after 3k miles? Or people who encounter substantial brake fade when in traffic?

SF

rkawski · 07-25-2004, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juma

rkawski - I differ with you slightly. SS hoses will shorten stopping distances slightly because they allow quicker action ... no pump up of the hoses before pad apply. all this happens in nano-seconds but it does make a performance difference. juma

True. Since the initial flex of the hose is now gone.

rkawski · 07-25-2004, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

Sure, pushing pistons, to the pads, to the rotors harder makes the system heatup faster.

You are not pushing on them any harder. You are just removing the flex from the hose. Easiest way to explain it is like this. With the stock rubber lines you will have push the pedal 3/8's of the way down to equal the same stopping force of 1/8 of the way down with the SS lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

I never said the lines caused the rotors to warp. I said I changes to Mintex pads, stainless lines and ATE Blue DOT 5 fluid, and those changes cause the rotors to warpe in only a couple months..

Yes but we agree the pads caused the warping not the fluid or the lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

rkawski, do you think stainless lines and better DOT4 or DOT5 fluid will help people that are having the substantial brake system problems?

It will stop the mushy pedal feel. I know because I have the lines on now. Pictures are online at: http://www.e-rak.com/gallery/album70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed-Freak

Such as people who have warped rotors on thier Titans after 3k miles? Or people who encounter substantial brake fade when in traffic?

I'm working on something to resolve that problem. I'll post when/if I can resolve the problem.