[MrMoMo]

Hi Folks, brand new here and trying to sort out an '06 Titan no start that has been brought to me by my wifes sisters husband, as a last ditch effort to save the truck. This post is EXTREMELY long, and I apologize for that - but I am trying to get all the information I have gathered as accurately as possible - in hopes that someone can help me sort this out!

A little back story - truck started having occasional no start issues last winter, generally would start the first time, then not the second, then start again, but not the time after that etc... Eventually it got to the point where the truck would not start at all, and then would not even roll over. In April of 2016 the truck was taken to a garage where they removed the computer, another "box" under the steering column (for some reason) and were not able to resolve anything. I have no idea of the skill level of this garage, but they didn't really seem to do much other than offer to buy new parts and try it - not at their cost of course. Truck was there for months, either due to inability to resolve the issue, or time, or... I really don't know. In late November my sister in law contacted me and asked what they should do, part it out, sell it as is, or just junk it. I told them if they were not in a rush they could drop it off at my place and I would fiddle with it when I had spare time. That's where we are now..

Truck arrived at my place just before Christmas, and I had been Googling the symptoms so took a preliminary attack at all the very basics... Started by putting back together all the things I could find that the garage had taken apart - including re-installing the computer, and "box" under the steering column (seems to just be a harness junction point, that I wonder if they had confused with the IPDM?). With all the components back in place, I turned the key hoping for some magic, and of course - got nothing. (wishful thinking). From here the very first thing I did was remove the battery connections and clean them - The positive post was horribly dirty - as well as the connection between the post clamp and the fuse block. This did gain me some good - the truck now cranked over, but would not fire.

Next I pulled a plug to check for spark - nothing. So, without spark I know it's not going to fire, but why don't I have spark?

Thinking possibly the Crank position sensor was blown (preventing the ECM from knowing when to fire) I checked resistance of the coil, and it was there - don't remember what it was, but it was there. I assume from this, the wire inside is not broken, hence it should be able to send a position signal to the ECM - but I could be wrong?

Obviously at this point I was starting to get somewhere, and now started checking things like the relays in the IPDM. At first I just swapped the ECM relay with the Fog light relay - to see if it would go. Still no-go.

Next of course I tried to read codes - and this is where I ran into some strange-ness... I couldn't seem to connect to the OBD-II system at all - it just "failed". I also noticed that the mileage was not showing up on the dash display. I was curious if this meant that perhaps the computer was fried - or maybe that the computer was not getting power, or ground. I searched the ECM harness pin out so that I could check this.

Today I went out into the shop to start poking around again. Checked the battery voltage (I've had a float charger on it) and it was good. Figured I'd pull the IPDM out again, pull the relays and check coil continuity, and verify that they were working. As I pulled the board out - I disconnected what I believe is the main power feed wires (black and red) - and decided to check them as well. Red wire to battery ground was good, but oddly, I also had 12V on the black wire. (?!) - Not sure if this is normal when the ignition is off??

While doing this I was cycling the ignition to verify when I had power where... and oddly enough, on one of the ignition cycles - I could see the mileage - WOAH - being hopeful, I cranked it over, but still no firing.

Anyway - I pulled the ECM relay and checked the coil - resistance was 151 ohms. I also made up some short leads and triggered the relay from a battery - clickity click - seems to be working fine. Also checked the relay contacts are connecting when the relay triggers - and they are. tested fine 10 out of 10 times.

Since I was able to get the mileage to show up, I decided to try to connect to the OBD-II again, and managed to this time!! At first I was just connecting using a cheap eBay Wifi adapter and the DashCommand app on my phone - but it was enough to tell me that it had actually connected (where previously it would not). It didn't manage to tell me much - but I did get some info;
___________________________
Engine Codes;
0 Stored Codes found
0 Pending Codes found
0 Permanent Codes found

Readiness Monitors;
4 complete
3 incomplete
___________________________

Knowing that there must be more to the story than this, I broke out my Ross Tech VAG-COM. (for those who are not familiar, this is the kick *** read/write VW software, but also has generic OBD-II capability)


So, here is what I am able to gather from the truck...

_________________________________________
Wednesday,28,December,2016,13:42:58:25489
VCDS Release 16.8.4 (x64): Generic OBD2
Mode 9 : Calibration Identification

Type 02 - VIN : 1N6AA06F28N312409 (Address E8)
Type 04 - Calibration ID : 1ZR25B (Address E8)
Type 04 - Calibration ID : RX2485 (Address E8)
Type 06 - Calibration Verification Number : 0CB9D1C1 (Address E8)
Type 06 - Calibration Verification Number : 000059AF (Address E8)
Type 08 - In-use performance tracking :
OBD Monitoring Conditions Encountered count : 4379
Ignition cycle count : 15866
Conditions completion count / Specificied conditions encountered count
Catalyst monitor bank 1 : 7282 / 4372
Catalyst monitor bank 2 : 7270 / 4372
O2 Sensor monitor bank 1 : 7697 / 4376
O2 Sensor monitor bank 2 : 7733 / 4376
EGR-VVT monitor : 9549 / 4377
AIR monitor : 0 / 0
EVAP monitor : 511 / 1138

Mode 01 - PID 01 : Readiness -- Address 7E8

Number of DTCs stored: 0 -- MIL Status: MIL OFF
Misfire monitoring: Passed
Fuel System: Passed
Comprehensive Components: Passed
Catalyst monitoring: Failed or Incomplete
Heated catalyst monitoring: Not installed.
Evaporative system monitoring: Failed or Incomplete
Secondary air system monitoring: Not installed.
A/C system refrigerant monitoring: Not installed.
Oxygen sensor monitoring: Failed or Incomplete
Oxygen sensor heater monitoring: Passed
Exhaust Gas Recirculation: Not installed.

Mode 03: Emission related fault codes

Address 7E8: No fault code found.

Mode 10: Permanent Fault Codes

No fault code found.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At this point I decided to see if there was something preventing the computer from firing, so an easy check would be voltage. Not sure what Nissan uses for a cut off voltage, but figured I'd check it. "Static" is just with the ignition on, "Cranking" is obviously while cranking... Voltage seemed to be getting a little low at this point, so I hooked my charger up to boost it a little (second readings)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mode 1:Read Data

Static 1
42:Control module voltage 11.680 V
47:Absolute Throttle Position B 7 %

Cranking 1
42:Control module voltage 8.640 V
47:Absolute Throttle Position B 9 %

Static 2 - charger connected to boost voltage
(DVM at battery reads same as OBD voltage)
42:Control module voltage 12.560 V
47:Absolute Throttle Position B 7 %

Crankng 2 (after several Key Cycles to get milage to show again!)
(RPM was 138 during cranking)
42:Control module voltage 9.360 V
47:Absolute Throttle Position B 9 %
____________________________________________


So, I have a few unknowns at this point, that I am hoping someone can help me with...

1)What is the minimum ECM voltage Nissan requires to fire up the engine? Does a 3V drop seem excessive?
2)Can the emissions issues noted above in Bold/Italic/Underline cause the engine to not fire, and if so - where should I hunt down what is causing these errors?
3)what is the minimum cranking speed (is there?) for the engine to fire? - is 138RPM too slow for the ECM to fire the plugs?
4) SHOULD I REALLY HAVE 12V on the black wire feeding the IPDM, and where does this wire come from? (this was measured while NOT plugged into the IPDM, right at the plug on the harness, with reference to the battery)
5)Aside from the obvious problem here that I appear to still have an inconsistent ECM power up - where should I be looking for what is causing it to not fire?


Thanks a bunch for reading through all of that - I really hope something here is an obvious "Well there is your problem!" to someone!!

Bruce

 

[MrMoMo]

Whoops, forgot this info. I highly doubt that the intake temperature was actually 18 degrees, it's freezing *** cold in my shop (as you can see the coolant temperature is 1C - that I would believe!

Any hints here?

Wednesday,28,December,2016,14:01:19:25489
VCDS Release 16.8.4 (x64): Generic OBD2
Freeze Frame Data for address 7E8
PID02 DTC that caused freeze frame data storage: P1610
PID03 Fuel system 1/2 status: Open loop, conditions for closed loop not yet satisfied
... Open loop, conditions for closed loop not yet satisfied
PID04 Calculated load value: 0.0 %
PID05 Engine coolant temperature: 1 °C
PID06 Short Term Trim - Bank 1: 0.0 %
PID07 Long Term Trim - Bank 1: 0.0 %
PID08 Short Term Trim - Bank 2: 0.0 %
PID09 Long Term Trim - Bank 2: 0.0 %
PID0C Engine RPM: 0 /min
PID0D Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
PID0E Ignition timing advance for cyl #1: 60.0 Degrees
PID0F Intake air temperature: 18 °C
PID10 Mass Air Flow: 278.18 g/s
PID11 Throttle position sensor: 7.5 %
PID15 Bank 1 Sensor 2 Status: 0.080 V
PID19 Bank 2 Sensor 2 Status: 0.100 V
PID1F Time since engine start: 0 s

Thanks again.

Bruce

 

[Pale Rider]

I can say that the Titan is electrical power hungry.

When the battery voltages/amps are out of spec the truck will run like crap, or not at all.

do you hear the fuel pump prime?
have you checked to see if the trigger wire for the starter is energized when key in start position?
are all the body grounds good?
how about the fuses right off the positive battery post?
has anyone installed a new battery yet?

poke around the forum for others that had similar issues

>>> http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tit...-drivetrain/356241-2006-titan-wont-start.html

 

[dreep]

The "failed or incomplete" on the three checks (italicized) may just indicate that since the battery was disconnected, the truck hasn't completed a driving cycle needed to rest those.

I'm thinking IPDM board could be an issue, but I don't think I would throw parts at the truck unless you figure out the voltages and diagnose according to service manual flow diagrams.

9.36 V to the ECM sounds way low to me, and the service manual says Bat voltage at the ECM should be 11-14 V. Also, min cranking voltage spec is temp dependent, but should be above about ~9 V, even when cold (ie, below 32 deg F). Also, not sure which is the black wire to the IPDM, but from the service manual, IPDM terminals 38 and 59 should always be at ground potential. Hopefully that helps.

Another thing to diagnose: P1610 is "Lock Mode," which, if I'm reading the service manual correctly, indicates starting the truck with a "mechanical" key more than 5 times, or a BCM or ECM malfunction (the BCM is the box under the steering column, if the shop grabbed the correct box). Anyhow, with P1610, I'm thinking the key chip may have an issue? Or the ECM isn't coded to the key? That can certainly casue a no start condition.

But here's the odd thing - base XE models didn't come with the security immobilizer, unless they had an upgrade package. See http://www.titantalk.com/forums/titan-general-discussion/47995-chip-keys.html. So, I put the VIN from your ECM report above in an online VIN decoder to figure out model, and it comes back as a 2008, not a 2006. Also comes back as an XE, KC, LWB. Does that sound right? Could the shop have swapped ECMs as part of their diagnostics, if it really is an '06? If that's the case, it probably is in "Lock Mode" since the key wouldn't be recognized to that ECM. If it's not an issue with recognizing the key chip, then back to ECM and BCM diagnostics.

Oh, if you don't have the service manual, you can access it by joining the NICOclub forum, and going to their service manual index... select your year. Here's the link: Nissan Titan Factory Service Manuals

Best of luck... keep us posted with updates.

 

[Pale Rider]

The "failed or incomplete" on the three checks (italicized) may just indicate that since the battery was disconnected, the truck hasn't completed a driving cycle needed to rest those.

I'm thinking IPDM board could be an issue, but I don't think I would throw parts at the truck unless you figure out the voltages and diagnose according to service manual flow diagrams.

9.36 V to the ECM sounds way low to me, and the service manual says Bat voltage at the ECM should be 11-14 V. Also, min cranking voltage spec is temp dependent, but should be above about ~9 V, even when cold (ie, below 32 deg F). Also, not sure which is the black wire to the IPDM, but from the service manual, IPDM terminals 38 and 59 should always be at ground potential. Hopefully that helps.

Another thing to diagnose: P1610 is "Lock Mode," which, if I'm reading the service manual correctly, indicates starting the truck with a "mechanical" key more than 5 times, or a BCM or ECM malfunction (the BCM is the box under the steering column, if the shop grabbed the correct box). Anyhow, with P1610, I'm thinking the key chip may have an issue? Or the ECM isn't coded to the key? That can certainly casue a no start condition.

But here's the odd thing - base XE models didn't come with the security immobilizer, unless they had an upgrade package. See http://www.titantalk.com/forums/titan-general-discussion/47995-chip-keys.html. So, I put the VIN from your ECM report above in an online VIN decoder to figure out model, and it comes back as a 2008, not a 2006. Also comes back as an XE, KC, LWB. Does that sound right? Could the shop have swapped ECMs as part of their diagnostics, if it really is an '06? If that's the case, it probably is in "Lock Mode" since the key wouldn't be recognized to that ECM. If it's not an issue with recognizing the key chip, then back to ECM and BCM diagnostics.

Oh, if you don't have the service manual, you can access it by joining the NICOclub forum, and going to their service manual index... select your year. Here's the link: Nissan Titan Factory Service Manuals

Best of luck... keep us posted with updates.

shazam! dam dreep can you adopt me? :laugh: we should open up a shop! first purchase is a coffee pot. :laugh:

 

[dreep]

Ha! Thanks for the "offer," but no thanks. I'm semi-retired, and not looking to take on an apprentice oke:

Especially one who probably knows more than I do... :rockon

 

[Pale Rider]

Ha! Thanks for the "offer," but no thanks. I'm semi-retired, and not looking to take on an apprentice oke:

Especially one who probably knows more than I do... :rockon

hahahahhahahahahahaha, I always look for people who know more, otherwise what is the point. hahahahahahahahaha, :laugh::laugh::laugh:

ok, Ill go back in the shop and stand in the corner now. :laugh::laugh::laugh: I`ll keep the Titan and the tools company, :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[MrMoMo]

Argh.... Just wrote a whole reply out on my phone then attached a pic and all the text went poof...

Let's try again then... Firstly thanks for all the quick responses!

So - MY BAD - it is an '08 XC, LWB as you described.

Fuses were all good when I first checked - but initially I had no OBD/mileage showing so I'll check again.

I'll let the battery charge up to full and try cranking again since when I initially had voltage, I didn't have OBD/Mileage

Have not checked voltage at the starter - but truck consistently cranks over now - so I don't see that as the issue?

I don't hear the fuel pump run, but I also don't have spark... Well - I didn't previously - I'll check that again too, since there was no OBD/Mileage.

IPDM power wires I was measuring were pins 1 and 2 - the plug at the end of the row of relays that contains the ECM relay. No idea if these are a supply to or from the IPDM but find it odd that there is a black wire that is not ground. Hopeful that somehow this grounds the relays or something - and if the relay isn't getting ground.... Well, that would be easy.

Crap, I can't remember half the stuff I wrote...

I've attached a pic of the dash, showing all lights. (No key/triangle) Promise I'll fill the washer fluid once this is sorted out ;cD

I'll check through this stuff again tomorrow and report back - thanks!!

 

[bmoss1986]

Argh.... Just wrote a whole reply out on my phone then attached a pic and all the text went poof...

Let's try again then... Firstly thanks for all the quick responses!

So - MY BAD - it is an '08 XC, LWB as you described.

Fuses were all good when I first checked - but initially I had no OBD/mileage showing so I'll check again.

I'll let the battery charge up to full and try cranking again since when I initially had voltage, I didn't have OBD/Mileage

Have not checked voltage at the starter - but truck consistently cranks over now - so I don't see that as the issue?

I don't hear the fuel pump run, but I also don't have spark... Well - I didn't previously - I'll check that again too, since there was no OBD/Mileage.

IPDM power wires I was measuring were pins 1 and 2 - the plug at the end of the row of relays that contains the ECM relay. No idea if these are a supply to or from the IPDM but find it odd that there is a black wire that is not ground. Hopeful that somehow this grounds the relays or something - and if the relay isn't getting ground.... Well, that would be easy.

Crap, I can't remember half the stuff I wrote...

I've attached a pic of the dash, showing all lights. (No key/triangle) Promise I'll fill the washer fluid once this is sorted out ;cD

I'll check through this stuff again tomorrow and report back - thanks!!

I think you may have multiple issues here - which can be a huge PITA when trying to isolate an issue.

The following are my 2 cents, (worth a penny each)

1) The bad connection on the battery was causing the flickering in the dash. Was/is corrected by cleaning connection and charging battery.

Also, no spark could be caused by a bad camshaft positioning sensor. If those sensors go bad, there is no way for your ignition system to know when to fire. They usually throw a code before going bad, but because of the low battery/bad connection the codes get wiped and it leaves you scratching your head. Replace the camshaft pos. Sensor with an OEM one from the dealership. I bought multiple aftermarket camshaft pos. Sensors and none of them worked. The OEM sensors run about 150 bucks but they are the only ones that worked.

If that doesn't fix the problem, it could possibly be your IPDM.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[RobKar]

Battery ... I would swap that battery and try again. From what I am reading that would cover most of what you are seeing, and the Titan is battery sensitive...

Next Check the grounds from battery to chassis, engine, and tranny. Clean them up and reattach, then recheck.

Also, check the power from the device you are testing, so, don't connect the ground to the battery and the other wire to the device.

 

[jesselivengood]

Battery ... I would swap that battery and try again. From what I am reading that would cover most of what you are seeing, and the Titan is battery sensitive...

Next Check the grounds from battery to chassis, engine, and tranny. Clean them up and reattach, then recheck.

Also, check the power from the device you are testing, so, don't connect the ground to the battery and the other wire to the device.

I think he is on par. sounds like a terrible ground somewhere or a ICM bad,

 

[jesselivengood]

Battery ... I would swap that battery and try again. From what I am reading that would cover most of what you are seeing, and the Titan is battery sensitive...

Next Check the grounds from battery to chassis, engine, and tranny. Clean them up and reattach, then recheck.

Also, check the power from the device you are testing, so, don't connect the ground to the battery and the other wire to the device.

I think he is on par. sounds like a terrible ground somewhere or a ICM bad,

here is a diagram from alldata. you sound like you have a road to follow. this should help...

keep up posted!

 

[MrMoMo]

Checked a few things tonight:

All 4 main fuses on the side of the battery terminal are fine - no voltage drop through them.

Hooked up a second battery in parallel, with charger boosting. 13.2V at the battery static. 9.6V at the ECM cranking. Definitely have a voltage drop issue.

Second attempt (after a longer wait time) 15V (charger boosting) 10.05V at the ECM during cranking, 150RPM - still no fire.

Fuel pump IS running. Runs with ignition cycled, and then again during cranking.

Don't know if these numbers really mean anything at all, but....

test lead negative to;
white/ blue wire to coil pack has 13.5V static, with battery at 13.5, dropped to 10.5 during cranking
no voltage on middle coil pack wire (black?) static or cranking
no voltage on white / green static or cranking

reversing the test lead on the battery to the positive terminal:
White /blue wire to positive post is zero (mv) static, stable when cranking
Black wire is -13.5V static, stable when cranking (with slight drop)
white/green is -13.5V static, stable when cranking (with slight drop)

Does anyone have a quick refrerence for how the coil packs work, / are fired from the ECM?

cam position sensor resistance (both sensors are the same)

center and left pin - 1.2 k ohms
center and right pin - open
outer to outer pins - open

On a good note - I think I figured out the intermittent OBD and mileage issue... likely operator error (DUH). I discovered tonight that sometimes I was turning the key to position 2, and sometimes to position 3. position 2 lights up the shifter portion of the dash, and the radio. Position 3 powers up everything. Not being a Nissan guy - is that normal, or a hint at the cause of the problem? (position 2 accesory, position 3 run) IF so, what is position 1??

 

[jesselivengood]

Pin 3 is +12V Pin 2 is Ground. Check across these with a volt meter key on run position, if good then you need to check crank sensor
unplug it and set your volt meter to MV . pin to both sensor pins, have someone crank. if you do not see any movement on the dvom the crank sensor is dead.
If you have a MV pulse your ECM is dead.

Have you tried pulling codes from ECM?

 

[Walrus]

I recall reading somewhere on this site that you had to have 10.5 volts minimum to a coil pack to make it fire.

 

[Walrus]

http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tit...ms-2-fried-ipdms-10-fried-coil-packs-wtf.html

This guy had two threads started. I think I read it in one of them.

 

[RobKar]

http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tit...ms-2-fried-ipdms-10-fried-coil-packs-wtf.html

This guy had two threads started. I think I read it in one of them.

Bad, Bad, Bad grounding problem on this truck!
I knew this truck well.

 

[metrol12]

I had a 2008 LE/LWB with the same problem when it was cold <35°. The stealership was all over my truck with BS diagnostics.

First the Battery! I thought that was the issue myself and bought a new one. The next morning same problem. I Then went to the Stealership, stated I needed a new battery. Told them I just put on in! They wouldn't go any further unless they replaced it again! Stupid idiots!

I found out the truck's ECM needs 10.8 VDC measured when cranking to start. The Stealership did not do a proper load test on my new battery, they used a cheap hand held meter instead of a carbon block system. The next day, again would not start. Told them to find my new battery and put it back in, that took 4 hours. Of course the truck would start when the day was warmer.

Three days later, again no starting. Now, it's the starter motor solenoid. Nope, they changed it. 1 week later and still no start when cold. Now the day was warm and no problems.

Two days later in the cold morning, again no start. Fuses! Ha, the technician is an idiot. By moving fuses in the holder which I did at home the first time would have corrected the problem. I again stated this and that I would not have been at the Stealership if corrected myself! Now the diagnosis is the entire engine electrical harness, for which, the stealership had for over a week on this one. This is a one piece harness for the entire compartment and behind the dash. The days got warm again, no problems.

The next week, again cold morning and no start. Finally, the next day, the technician came in early when the morning was cold again. He did some actual troubleshooting and was able to determine it was a cold solder connection where the electrical harness plugs into the ECM. Since they cannot repair a solder connection at the dealership, they replaced the ECM. It has been 4 years now and no problems. Fortunately This was under warranty. The final bill was over $8K.

 

[TitanBlue]

Top of the IPDM has Relays for Starter etc. I had a complete sudden no crank issue a few months ago. But I could read codes enough to get it to say the CAN system was dead. Loss of CAN?! Got towed. Trans blew the Trans Fuse, got a new VCB Harness, then custom VCB (from Level 10) Installed and had no crank. I told them I had likely damaged a bottom row Relay using a pocket knife to move them around, but I don't recall touching the top row. Anywho, it was a bad Starter Relay on the IPDM. I had several spares in the truck and happened to drop by the Trans shop at the right time. They were about to remove the Starter, not thinking about checking for power to the starter first. After seeing no power and getting it to fire up if bypassing, they eventually figured out a Relay was the final issue. All has been well for a few months now.

 

[jesselivengood]

http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tit...ms-2-fried-ipdms-10-fried-coil-packs-wtf.html

This guy had two threads started. I think I read it in one of them.

Well that is a whole different can of worms!
If not ground, reference voltage shorting to ground, I would wonder has there been any repairs done prior, starter? transmission pulled, valve covers?