Joined
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7 Posts
Hello,
I haven't posted much in the past on these forums. Partially due to I had a newer truck under warranty. And I've had a overall good experience with it thus far. I just broke over the warranty mark a little over a month ago and started having issues. (Who'd a thought!? pfff). I searched around for probable causes. I took it into the shop (While it was under warranty) and the explanation that I received it that it was probably ring and pinion, and that was that. I couldn't get it replaced because I had a third party warranty that only replaced if there was a complete failure, not just for noise. I tried to negotiate this without success. I asked the service guy what the price was to fix and she said about $5K because its a whole new rear diff. So I drove it with this loud howling noise on the interstate. About a month later after I crossed the 100K mi warranty line I couldn't stand this howling anymore. So I decided to tackle this job myself. I'm pretty experience, had a landrover discovery2 in the past that I kept alive until 240K miles then decided to sell because I was fixing it just as much as driving it.
This is how I diagnosed and went about my temp fix for now...
Just my experience thus far...
So i pulled it into the garage and pulled the rear diff cover off and separated the driveshaft from the yoke. I could physically jiggle the yoke enough to make noise. I then performed a wear pattern test. (Cleaning and painting the ring to see how the ring/pinion interacted) The pattern I got was that the pinion was too deep into the diff. So I was going to pull the axles and see how much preload I had on the pinion nut. I then spent 3.5-4Hrs trying to free the axles. Slide hammer with a towel on the hammer part. I'm a considerably big/strong guy. nothing. soaked in PB blaster for the night and came back to it. Tried every trick except heat since I wasn't prepared to change axle seals/bearings. Completely unsuccessful. So after looking at what the preload should be I decided to check it with axles attached given the circumstances. I'll remind you the axles were bare with only the hub on them, no disc, no parking brake, completely bare. So in the service manual it says total preload torque should be 28-43 in/lbs....mine read 9 in/lbs. with axles attached. (Total preload should be: installed ring/pinion with proper preload on pinion and correctly installed side/carrier bearings. Its how to tell the side bearings have enough preload basically. )
So this is what I did...
I just tightened up the pinion nut. Without removing it or backing it off. If i could have gotten the axle off this would have been done differently but I had to drive it home and I was out of options. I tightened it little by little until I got about 40in/lbs on the torque wrench with the axles attached. Mind you, its really a little less then that due to the axles being engaged. Since I had 9in/lbs before I considered that was all axle since I could jiggle the pinion. No one really knows but Id guess I had aprox somewhere in the high 20in/lbs at least. I talked this over with my cousin who is a certified mech and he agreed given the situation this was prob the best course of action. I then did another pattern test. The test while not perfect was way better then before. (Who actually knows what it was when first install? Youd hope it was perfect but from reading around thats usually not the case) Also I checked the backlash (Dial indicator), It was barely out of spec (Looser). But since I couldn't get the axles off......it is what it is... So I reinstalled everything. Filled it back up with gear oil. and took it for a test drive.
How it came out...
The noise while not 100% gone is prob back to baseline for when I purchased it. It's always hard to tell what it did sound like because you wern't actually listenting for it before (as in new). You can just get a hint of it every now and then. Mostly when on cruise control and almost level ground to slight decline, is when you can barely hear it. Obviously when I get a good time permitting weekend and the supplies I'll rebuild it to spec. But for the temp fix this is working for me just fine. At the time I wrote this I've got about 4K miles on it after I tightened the pinion nut. The diff is hitting the normal temps on the gauge and nothing has changes since my first test drives after i did it.
Theory on why it happened...
After reading various post on the internet and watching loads of vids. I seems that the main reason the pinion nut would back off or loosen is either a bearings going bad with the symptoms of turning the yoke by hand it'll seems gritty and just not smooth or some kind of violent torque load the the wheels...as in free wheel to a sudden stop...experienced while wheeling. I don't wheel my truck just yet. But when it was very cold out I was driving at 70mph uphill and hit some ice. Enough ice that the truck fishtailed and kicked my cruise control off and set off all the alarms for that sort of thing. The tires chirped and everything. It was prob within a month I started noticing this noise thinking back. I believe this is the event that started everything.
SO there you have it. Just a post on my experience. I know what I could have done instead. What would have been easier. I understand I should have had a new crush sleeve a new pinion nut red lock tight. But I didn't. And I feel good about my temp fix. I figure it'll slowly make the noise again if it loosens up as a pre warning. Maybe it wont. Just my experience to add to the archives. Contributing to the forum.
JON
:::::::Update::::::
Now the truck mileage is 40k miles more. 144k Miles total.
It's been 40k miles since I temp fixed it. I've not touched it since. No new seals. No new diff fluid. Just as I left it.
The noise is still minimal. Nothing even close to "howling". There is no play in the pinion still. The noise is completely unnoticeable with the windows down, or the radio on loud enough so that it would cover up typical wind noise.
With the windows up, and radio off, the noise is slightly louder then when I first tightened up the pinion nut. I assume it's just seated now as it hasn't changed at all since 6-7k miles after I tightened it up.
I'd chance this fix 1000 times over fixing it out of the gate for the shop price. I've had good results with a little bit of critical thinking. I didn't have the money to just throw down for the "textbook" fix. Just take your time and don't over tighten the nut. There is a crush sleve on the inside that will not expand if you back it off. So just inch it tight until you have a measurable increase in rotational torque but it still fit inside the specs. (This is all an estimation of course) I went by the specs because you have to have a goal for "normal". The in/lb torque wrench is only $20-25. I'd say if I was going to aim for this fix, it'd cost $45-50 after fluids, sealant, torque wrench, white lith grease for "paint"
Jon
::::Update:::::
Truck has 183k on it now...
Still as good as the day i tightened it up. Havent touched it. Still has the same diff fluid in it since I fixed it. I'm about to change it and made me think to update this.
JON
I haven't posted much in the past on these forums. Partially due to I had a newer truck under warranty. And I've had a overall good experience with it thus far. I just broke over the warranty mark a little over a month ago and started having issues. (Who'd a thought!? pfff). I searched around for probable causes. I took it into the shop (While it was under warranty) and the explanation that I received it that it was probably ring and pinion, and that was that. I couldn't get it replaced because I had a third party warranty that only replaced if there was a complete failure, not just for noise. I tried to negotiate this without success. I asked the service guy what the price was to fix and she said about $5K because its a whole new rear diff. So I drove it with this loud howling noise on the interstate. About a month later after I crossed the 100K mi warranty line I couldn't stand this howling anymore. So I decided to tackle this job myself. I'm pretty experience, had a landrover discovery2 in the past that I kept alive until 240K miles then decided to sell because I was fixing it just as much as driving it.
This is how I diagnosed and went about my temp fix for now...
Just my experience thus far...
So i pulled it into the garage and pulled the rear diff cover off and separated the driveshaft from the yoke. I could physically jiggle the yoke enough to make noise. I then performed a wear pattern test. (Cleaning and painting the ring to see how the ring/pinion interacted) The pattern I got was that the pinion was too deep into the diff. So I was going to pull the axles and see how much preload I had on the pinion nut. I then spent 3.5-4Hrs trying to free the axles. Slide hammer with a towel on the hammer part. I'm a considerably big/strong guy. nothing. soaked in PB blaster for the night and came back to it. Tried every trick except heat since I wasn't prepared to change axle seals/bearings. Completely unsuccessful. So after looking at what the preload should be I decided to check it with axles attached given the circumstances. I'll remind you the axles were bare with only the hub on them, no disc, no parking brake, completely bare. So in the service manual it says total preload torque should be 28-43 in/lbs....mine read 9 in/lbs. with axles attached. (Total preload should be: installed ring/pinion with proper preload on pinion and correctly installed side/carrier bearings. Its how to tell the side bearings have enough preload basically. )
So this is what I did...
I just tightened up the pinion nut. Without removing it or backing it off. If i could have gotten the axle off this would have been done differently but I had to drive it home and I was out of options. I tightened it little by little until I got about 40in/lbs on the torque wrench with the axles attached. Mind you, its really a little less then that due to the axles being engaged. Since I had 9in/lbs before I considered that was all axle since I could jiggle the pinion. No one really knows but Id guess I had aprox somewhere in the high 20in/lbs at least. I talked this over with my cousin who is a certified mech and he agreed given the situation this was prob the best course of action. I then did another pattern test. The test while not perfect was way better then before. (Who actually knows what it was when first install? Youd hope it was perfect but from reading around thats usually not the case) Also I checked the backlash (Dial indicator), It was barely out of spec (Looser). But since I couldn't get the axles off......it is what it is... So I reinstalled everything. Filled it back up with gear oil. and took it for a test drive.
How it came out...
The noise while not 100% gone is prob back to baseline for when I purchased it. It's always hard to tell what it did sound like because you wern't actually listenting for it before (as in new). You can just get a hint of it every now and then. Mostly when on cruise control and almost level ground to slight decline, is when you can barely hear it. Obviously when I get a good time permitting weekend and the supplies I'll rebuild it to spec. But for the temp fix this is working for me just fine. At the time I wrote this I've got about 4K miles on it after I tightened the pinion nut. The diff is hitting the normal temps on the gauge and nothing has changes since my first test drives after i did it.
Theory on why it happened...
After reading various post on the internet and watching loads of vids. I seems that the main reason the pinion nut would back off or loosen is either a bearings going bad with the symptoms of turning the yoke by hand it'll seems gritty and just not smooth or some kind of violent torque load the the wheels...as in free wheel to a sudden stop...experienced while wheeling. I don't wheel my truck just yet. But when it was very cold out I was driving at 70mph uphill and hit some ice. Enough ice that the truck fishtailed and kicked my cruise control off and set off all the alarms for that sort of thing. The tires chirped and everything. It was prob within a month I started noticing this noise thinking back. I believe this is the event that started everything.
SO there you have it. Just a post on my experience. I know what I could have done instead. What would have been easier. I understand I should have had a new crush sleeve a new pinion nut red lock tight. But I didn't. And I feel good about my temp fix. I figure it'll slowly make the noise again if it loosens up as a pre warning. Maybe it wont. Just my experience to add to the archives. Contributing to the forum.
JON
:::::::Update::::::
Now the truck mileage is 40k miles more. 144k Miles total.
It's been 40k miles since I temp fixed it. I've not touched it since. No new seals. No new diff fluid. Just as I left it.
The noise is still minimal. Nothing even close to "howling". There is no play in the pinion still. The noise is completely unnoticeable with the windows down, or the radio on loud enough so that it would cover up typical wind noise.
With the windows up, and radio off, the noise is slightly louder then when I first tightened up the pinion nut. I assume it's just seated now as it hasn't changed at all since 6-7k miles after I tightened it up.
I'd chance this fix 1000 times over fixing it out of the gate for the shop price. I've had good results with a little bit of critical thinking. I didn't have the money to just throw down for the "textbook" fix. Just take your time and don't over tighten the nut. There is a crush sleve on the inside that will not expand if you back it off. So just inch it tight until you have a measurable increase in rotational torque but it still fit inside the specs. (This is all an estimation of course) I went by the specs because you have to have a goal for "normal". The in/lb torque wrench is only $20-25. I'd say if I was going to aim for this fix, it'd cost $45-50 after fluids, sealant, torque wrench, white lith grease for "paint"
Jon
::::Update:::::
Truck has 183k on it now...
Still as good as the day i tightened it up. Havent touched it. Still has the same diff fluid in it since I fixed it. I'm about to change it and made me think to update this.
JON
