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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Over the next couple months I'm planning to work my way through all the different spacer + lift strut setups to figure out the best overall combination (my opinion) of what we have available. That includes some minor milling if necessary. My goal is to find the max allowable front lift that provides the best combination of on road ride quality, offroad performance, clearance, and CV angles. I've gone through all the threads, and arguments have been made for nearly all the different 5100 options. But I almost never see mention of CV angles, ride quality off road, or ride quality in comparison to other setups. I think most people (understandably) install a lift and are happy unless it rides really terrible, hits the coil bucket or something breaks. Also, ride quality is VERY subjective.
The few constants across the board were, 3" of front lift +/- .25" is the reasonable max. And to get there, aftermarket UCA's, cam bolt alignment kit, extended sway bar links, and extended bump stops when a spacer is used are all necessary. So I ordered the Bilstein recommended 6100's and 5160's along with Dirt King UCA's, Nisstec cam bolt kit, extended sway bar end links, 2.5" bump stops, and 1.5" rear lift blocks + U-bolts.
I spoke with Greg at PRG and his opinion is to set the 6100 two slots down from the top, so the #5 setting which is 1.5" and combine it with his 1.5" top spacer. So based on this, I ordered the 1.5" spacer.
But after more research I noticed most of the 5100 setups are used with a 2" spacer and combined with the 5100 on the middle setting, which is 1". So I ordered a Rough Country 2" spacer as well. Now CV angle at max droop is a possible concern. However, most report that more spacer and less strut preload provided a less harsh ride.
And last but not least, the Nisstec 1" lift spacer with extended mounting bolts. Definitely the most involved of all the spacers, but maybe it's worth the trouble. This spacer paired with 2.2" max preload would limit the amount of droop and have the best fully extended CV angles, aside from stock. But I can also mill it down if 3.2" is too much.
I will most likely start with the 2" spacer and #4 setting on the 6100, total 3.1". This will allow me to get it aligned and use the +2" bump stop. As I step down in spacer thickness, I can mill the bump stop an equal amount. I will drive on the new shocks at stock ride height for a month or so to allow everything to settle in before putting any of the lift components on. I'd like to know the isolated difference between the oem 4600's and the new setup anyways.
Some might say "Why even bother, just lift it 3" Rough Country for $400 and call it a day". Well, I'm a nerd, I like projects like this, and it's incredibly easy. I have a spring compressor, lift, air tools, and mills. All of my hobbies involve obsessing on suspension setup. Hobby grade RC racing, full suspension mountain biking, my Can Am Maverick X3. And I only drive those 1% of the time. My truck is my daily driver, tows my sxs, takes me to the mtb trails, hunting, and everything else. "Why not buy Kings or Fox with DSC?" Well, if you've ever owned a Razr or X3, you know they are a money pit! My budget is $3500 including tires. Most likely 305 65r18 Toyo RT or Ridge Grapplers.
So as of today the shocks and struts are installed, stock ride height. I'm only waiting on the RC and PRG spacer. I will post updates along the way for anyone interested, and for myself to refer back. It's gonna be a slow process, but I'm fine with that. If anyone with additional useful info wants to pass it along, I would be very appreciative.

Install schedule:
6/26 Install 6100/5160 at stock height #1

Additional info: The Bilstein 5160 shocks part# 25-288384 are 1.125" longer eye to eye and stroke than the oem 4600.

The Bilstein 6100 struts part# 24-268233 are .5 longer OAL and stroke than the oem 4600.


 

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Thanks for all the work and consideration for putting this out there. I am interested one day in having a buttery smooth suspension. I have never driven a Raptor, but they sure look like they soak up the bumps. I don't even want mine lifted much. Just enough to perhaps fit a little larger tire and perhaps some Black Rhino wheels. (y) Looking forward to seeing what you have to say even at stock on those shocks.
 

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Me too! My previous truck didn't rub or require a pinch weld mod. I'm kinda reluctant to do this on a brand new buggy....
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I have some initial thoughts, and some technical info. First off, CV angles. The stock angle at oem ride height is 3.5° and at max droop its 8.5°. From my prior experiences with the big 3, 8-9° at ride height and maxing out around 11.5° to 12.5° is the most you can go without getting premature axle wear. Fins rubbing on the boots makes it obvious that damage is happening. Above 15° is probably gonna rip the boot when you turn while articulated. You can also check for binding when you lift the truck with a jack and rotate the wheel by hand. One of my trucks was a 13 Silverado and with the truck on the lift, I could manually rotate a front tire clockwise and the opposite tire would rotate counter clockwise. It was smooth and no resistance. Added 3" spacer lift and it would no longer rotate more than a quarter turn. Added a 1" diff drop and fixed the problem. It's not all that uncommon, but if you never go offroad, you will probably never even know until cv wears out or boot tears. My neighbor works at Discount Tire and he comes across binding all the time on "mall crawlers with puck lifts".
Anyways, the Bilstein 6100 have a shock shaft .5" longer than the stock 4600. This equates to 1" additional down travel at the hub. Max CV angle with the 6100's is 9°. Looks like it'll be around 12-13° with the 2" Rough Country spacer and 11-12° with the PRG 1.5" spacer. These are obviously estimates, but they will be close. I am already leaning towards the PRG 1.5" with CV boot mod being the max safe range for longevity. But we'll see in due time.
Ride quality and dampening of the new 6100/5160's. I've only driven 50 onroad miles, so this is just the initial thoughts. Huge difference in oscillation and body roll. The truck immediately settles back to ride height after big bumps and dips. No more double oscillation, ever. Body roll and brake dive were decent stock, but it's about 50% less now. Seems like they bumped up the low speed compression and slowed down rebound. I like it so far, but I think it will be a little better still with heavier wheel/tire combo. Small bumps don't effect the truck as much, but are more noticeable. But it's still too early to complain about small bump sensitivity.
Also, to those who have asked the difference between the Bilstein 6100 and 6112. The 6100 is only the strut. The 6112 is the strut and also a Bilstein branded Eibach spring. Our Titans already have a 3" i.d. spring and don't require new springs to clear the strut. No need for new springs unless you are adding weight up front, i.e. winch or bumpers.

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this should be a cool thread and @Nismomike sure added good info because i would never know that kind of stuff
 

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Over the next couple months I'm planning to work my way through all the different spacer setups to figure out the best overall combination (my opinion) of what we have available. That includes some minor milling if necessary. My goal is to find the max allowable front lift that provides the best combination of on road ride quality, offroad performance, clearance, and CV angle. I've gone through all the threads, and arguments have been made for nearly all the different 5100 options. But I almost never see mention of CV angle, ride quality off road, or ride quality in comparison to other setups. I think most people (understandably) add a lift and are happy unless it rides really terrible, hits the coil bucket or something breaks. Also, ride quality is VERY subjective.
The few constants across the board were, 3" of front lift +/- .25" is the reasonable max. And to get there, aftermarket UCA's, cam bolt alignment kit, extended sway bar links, and extended bump stops when a spacer is used are all necessary. So I ordered the Bilstein recommended 6100's and 5160's along with Dirt King UCA's, Nisstec cam bolt kit, extended sway bar end links, 2.5" bump stops, and 1.5" rear lift blocks + U-bolts.
I spoke with Greg at PRG and his opinion is to set the 6100 two slots down from the top, so the #5 setting which is 1.5" and combine it with his 1.5" top spacer. So based on this, I ordered the 1.5" spacer.
But after more research I noticed most of the 5100 setups are used with a 2" spacer and combined with the 5100 on the middle setting, which is 1". So I ordered a Rough Country 2" spacer as well. Now CV angle at max droop is a possible concern. However, most report that more spacer and less strut preload provided a less harsh ride.
And last but not least, the Nisstec 1" lift spacer with extended mounting bolts. Definitely the most involved of all the spacers, but maybe it's worth the trouble. This spacer paired with 2.2" max preload would limit the amount of droop and have the best fully extended CV angles, aside from stock. But I can also mill it down if 3.2" is too much.
I will most likely start with the 2" spacer and #4 setting on the 6100, total 3.1". This will allow me to get it aligned and use the +2" bump stop. As I step down in spacer thickness, I can mill the bump stop an equal amount. I will drive on the new shocks at stock ride height for a month or so to allow everything to settle in before putting any of the lift components on. I'd like to know the isolated difference between the oem 4600's and the new setup anyways.
Some might say "Why even bother, just lift it 3" Rough Country for $400 and call it a day". Well, I'm a nerd, I like projects like this, and it's incredibly easy. I have a spring compressor, lift, air tools, and mills. All of my hobbies involve obsessing on suspension setup. Hobby grade RC racing, full suspension mountain biking, my Can Am Maverick X3. And I only drive those 1% of the time. My truck is my daily driver, tows my sxs, takes me to the mtb trails, hunting, and everything else. "Why not buy Kings or Fox with DSC?" Well, if you're ever owned a Razr or X3, you know they are a money pit! My budget is $3500 including tires. Most likely 305 65r18 Toyo AT3 or Ridge Grapplers.
So as of today the shocks and struts are installed, stock ride height. I'm only waiting on the RC and PRG spacer. I will post updates along the way for anyone interested, and for myself to refer back. It's gonna be a slow process, but I'm fine with that. If anyone with additional useful info wants to pass it along, I would be very appreciative.

Install schedule:
6/26 Install 6100/5160 at stock height #1
7/17 Move Circlip to #7 +2.2" Add 1.5" rear lift blocks
7/24 +2" spacer & #4 Circlip, Total 3.1" install all supporting components including tires & get alignment.

Additional info: The Bilstein 5160 shocks part# 25-288384 are 1.125" longer eye to eye and stroke than the oem 4600.

The Bilstein 6100 struts part# 24-268233 are .5 longer OAL and stroke than the oem 4600.


Awesome stuff I will consider once my Grabbers stop “grabbing”…. But then again they really don't seem to grab to well….
 

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I added SPC UAC’s, 2.5” front and 1.5” rear spacers, 305/55r20 Cooper XLT’s about 12k ago. Looks great, but rides terrible. Lost about 1.5-2 mpg.

I’ve been wanting to make changes to improve the ride, but trying to keep the looks. 6100’s are at the top of the list. Changing to 18’s and either 295/70r18 or 305/65r18 are possibilities. The SPC UAC’s are nice. I had them adjusted almost all the way forward while maintaining the factory alignment specs. Have plenty of room where the pinch weld mod area is now. Looks for sure like it will help fit the 295/70’s.

I don’t think you’ll need a full 3” of lift to fit the tires your looking at. The 1.5” spacers and 6100’s on 4 should work.

RC just came out with an aluminum UAC. The lesser weight should help the ride quality too.

Looking forward to the results of your experiment as I’m looking for same results as you.
 

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552721

Here’s a good picture of it. I’ll add some pics of the cv angle and spacing around front and rear of front tire well for you to compare with.

With the 2.5”/1.5” spacers it measures about .5” taller from the ground to top of tire well in the rear.

I did get some rubbing originally and did a pinch weld mod. If the original install of the SPC arms had been done the way it’s setup now I probably wouldn’t have needed the PWM.
 
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CV angle of with 2.5” spacer lift only

552805
 

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Over the next couple months I'm planning to work my way through all the different spacer + lift strut setups to figure out the best overall combination (my opinion) of what we have available. That includes some minor milling if necessary. My goal is to find the max allowable front lift that provides the best combination of on road ride quality, offroad performance, clearance, and CV angles. I've gone through all the threads, and arguments have been made for nearly all the different 5100 options. But I almost never see mention of CV angles, ride quality off road, or ride quality in comparison to other setups. I think most people (understandably) install a lift and are happy unless it rides really terrible, hits the coil bucket or something breaks. Also, ride quality is VERY subjective.
The few constants across the board were, 3" of front lift +/- .25" is the reasonable max. And to get there, aftermarket UCA's, cam bolt alignment kit, extended sway bar links, and extended bump stops when a spacer is used are all necessary. So I ordered the Bilstein recommended 6100's and 5160's along with Dirt King UCA's, Nisstec cam bolt kit, extended sway bar end links, 2.5" bump stops, and 1.5" rear lift blocks + U-bolts.
I spoke with Greg at PRG and his opinion is to set the 6100 two slots down from the top, so the #5 setting which is 1.5" and combine it with his 1.5" top spacer. So based on this, I ordered the 1.5" spacer.
But after more research I noticed most of the 5100 setups are used with a 2" spacer and combined with the 5100 on the middle setting, which is 1". So I ordered a Rough Country 2" spacer as well. Now CV angle at max droop is a possible concern. However, most report that more spacer and less strut preload provided a less harsh ride.
And last but not least, the Nisstec 1" lift spacer with extended mounting bolts. Definitely the most involved of all the spacers, but maybe it's worth the trouble. This spacer paired with 2.2" max preload would limit the amount of droop and have the best fully extended CV angles, aside from stock. But I can also mill it down if 3.2" is too much.
I will most likely start with the 2" spacer and #4 setting on the 6100, total 3.1". This will allow me to get it aligned and use the +2" bump stop. As I step down in spacer thickness, I can mill the bump stop an equal amount. I will drive on the new shocks at stock ride height for a month or so to allow everything to settle in before putting any of the lift components on. I'd like to know the isolated difference between the oem 4600's and the new setup anyways.
Some might say "Why even bother, just lift it 3" Rough Country for $400 and call it a day". Well, I'm a nerd, I like projects like this, and it's incredibly easy. I have a spring compressor, lift, air tools, and mills. All of my hobbies involve obsessing on suspension setup. Hobby grade RC racing, full suspension mountain biking, my Can Am Maverick X3. And I only drive those 1% of the time. My truck is my daily driver, tows my sxs, takes me to the mtb trails, hunting, and everything else. "Why not buy Kings or Fox with DSC?" Well, if you've ever owned a Razr or X3, you know they are a money pit! My budget is $3500 including tires. Most likely 305 65r18 Toyo AT3 or Ridge Grapplers.
So as of today the shocks and struts are installed, stock ride height. I'm only waiting on the RC and PRG spacer. I will post updates along the way for anyone interested, and for myself to refer back. It's gonna be a slow process, but I'm fine with that. If anyone with additional useful info wants to pass it along, I would be very appreciative.

Install schedule:
6/26 Install 6100/5160 at stock height #1

Additional info: The Bilstein 5160 shocks part# 25-288384 are 1.125" longer eye to eye and stroke than the oem 4600.

The Bilstein 6100 struts part# 24-268233 are .5 longer OAL and stroke than the oem 4600.


Is this the cam bolt kit and extended sway bar end link kit you ordered? @Nismomike



 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
After running the 6100's at stock height for 500 miles, I decided the long July 4th weekend was the best time to do the majority of the front end part swap. Upper control arms, cam bolts, bump stops, sway bar end links and an alignment. I'm still waiting on the Rough Country 2" spacer, so for now I went with the PRG 1.5" and struts still set to stock height. The install was straight forward, with no surprises aside from needing to remove the sway bar to pull out the front cam bolts.
The PRG 1.5" lift spacer measures 0.900" thick. I had assumed the Titan front struts were 2:1 leverage ratio, but looks to be actually closer to 1.7:1. However, the Nisstec 1.0" lift spacer measures 0.5" , which would be 2:1. I'll wait and see how all the spacers work out in reference to lift though. Could be the PRG seats deeper in the coil bucket or the Titan has a lower leverage ratio.
With the spacers installed and front end at full droop, the hubs rotated very smooth. No bind or resistance from the cv joints. Max droop CV angle is at 12.5° and 7.7° at ride height. I definitely think this setup is still in the safe zone. I need to double check everything now that it's had an alignment. Although, it should be even better based on the adjustments I can see were done. I don't think I'll use a thicker spacer than the PRG. I'm sure plenty of people use the Rough Country 2" spacer and beat on their truck without issue, but I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze for me. I'll probably install it just to check cv angles, but I'm already at 12° to 12.5° now.
The rear ride height is still stock, but next weekend I'm installing the 1.5" blocks. The PRG 1.5" spacer gave me 1.65" lift measured from the hub to the fender. The rake is only .25" now. I have noticed a very minor change in ride comfort. Small road imperfections transmit more feedback, but I still consider the ride nice and smooth. Feels like I added 5 psi to the front tires. Most people wouldn't even notice if you didn't tell them. Again, I think larger & heavier tires with more sidewall will eliminate some of this feedback. My last truck was a half ton Silverado and I installed the Rough Country 3.5" N3 lifted struts and shocks with 2" rear blocks. It rode terrible. Like an old empty 1 ton truck. I'll never do that again. I'm not willing to compromise ride quality this time around. I have not been out 4 wheeling since the truck was stock, but I have a couple beat up fire roads near my house that I have been blasting down. Stays planted and easy to drive fast, but the stock tires are very average. Rear end doesn't walk around like it did with the 4600's.
Next up is rear blocks and front struts set to 1.1" lift. I'll run it for a week before getting tires. So far so good.


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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Looks great, but rides terrible.
Looking forward to the results of your experiment as I’m looking for same results as you.
I'm gonna figure out a good combo. It might not be as high as I'm hoping for. But I'm more committed to a great riding/handling truck than big tires. Of course I love the look of a lifted truck as well. I'm pretty confident I will get at least another .5"
Thanks for the additional info. Do you do much 4 wheeling?



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I'm gonna figure out a good combo. It might not be as high as I'm hoping for. But I'm more committed to a great riding/handling truck than big tires. Of course I love the look of a lifted truck as well. I'm pretty confident I will get at least another .5"
Thanks for the additional info. Do you do much 4 wheeling?

No 4 wheeling really. I used to need something with some capability back when I used to work construction. I just like knowing it will handle a little bit if needed.

I came across this article, nice Titan.


I didn’t think you could get 17’s for these Titan’s but apparently you can. Something else to note is that a 305/70r17 requires the least amount of air pressure for the Titans load requirements in the 33”-34” r rwa we range.

So more sidewall, less air pressure, only a slight bit taller than a 305/65r18, has to ride smoother. KMC and XD are also showing some 17’s as fitting the 2nd gens.




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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
CV boots at ride height. No fin rub at all. I have not done the boot mod either.


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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I don't know that they are required for less than 2" of lift. Only toe is adjustable on our trucks. But with cam bolts you can add more caster and move your wheel about .750" forward and gain some clearance near the pinch weld. The PRG website explains it well. Adding caster is like adding head tube angle on a bicycle. Slacker adds a little more stability when hitting a rough or rocky road, but makes your turning radius a little bit bigger. Probably not enough to notice though. Here is a link to PRG explanation

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I don't know that they are required for less than 2" of lift. Only toe is adjustable on our trucks. But with cam bolts you can add more caster and move your wheel about .750" forward and gain some clearance near the pinch weld. The PRG website explains it well. Adding caster is like adding head tube angle on a bicycle. Slacker adds a little more stability when hitting a rough or rocky road, but makes your turning radius a little bit bigger. Probably not enough to notice though. Here is a link to PRG explanation

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How did you get the nut on the top of the rear shock off on the driver side? and how did you get it back on the bolt after you got your new shock in place? It’s pretty cramp up there and I can’t think of a way to get that nut off with out it falling into the frame
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
How did you get the nut on the top of the rear shock off on the driver side? and how did you get it back on the bolt after you got your new shock in place? It’s pretty cramp up there and I can’t think of a way to get that nut off with out it falling into the frame
First remove the small panel in the rear wheel well. It's held in place with 4 body panel clips. Then pop the harness clip out of the way. Needle nose pliers were able to pry it out without destroying it. Then I used a deep impact socket with a 4" extension and impact gun. I didn't even have to remove the tire. Put the closed end of a spanner wrench on the other side to hold the bolt from rotating. You could also use a strategically placed Cresent wrench if you don't have a 19mm (or 21mm?) spanner. If you don't have an impact gun, you will have to use more extensions or remove the tire.

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