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Discussion Starter #1
I want to get 20' wheels and 35" Nitto Trail Grapplers and do some minor off roading with my truck. Would leveling be enough for this to happen or would I have to lift to be safe. I have money for the lift just don't know if it is over kill for what I am wanting to do.

I'm new into the whole truck modding thing so I'm just wanting to do all of my homework before I make decisions on stuff.
 

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There are some guys running 35's with a leveling kit and the stock wheels. I don't think you can get 20's with the right offset/backspacing to allow for 35's to clear. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure that is the case. I'm sure someone else will chime in.
 

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Just like warrior said, you should be able to fit 35's with just a leveling kit or mini lift. Not sure about fitting them with aftermarket 20's though. If you want to stay with a leveling kit or mini lift but want 20's you could also buy some OEM 20" wheels from someone on here and that should take care of any fitment problems. If not, just get the wheels you want and lift it.
 

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If there was some reason I couldn't run 18's, and if I didn't want to trim, or wanted to minimize trimming, I'd go with an 20x8.5 with +25mm offset for 5.75" backspacing to tuck the rim in an additional ¼" more than stock, and therefore they will only stick out ¼" more as well, [sticking the rim out more increases the chance of rubbing at the pinch weld for a given tire size].

Here's an example of one, (note that the 25 in the description, "20X8.5 6-139.HR25MTB", stands for +25mm offset).
MB Wheels, Gunner 6 at Discount Tire Direct


Leveled, and with the brand new size Trail Grappler, LT295/60R20 E 126Q 34.45"x12.13" you will likely need to heat and reshape fender liners and remove or trim the mudguards, but less likely to need metal trimming than mine.

Even though my tires are A/T's, and slightly shorter, at 34", my 8" width rims with 4.5" backspacing stick out an inch more than the stock 18's and 20's, while an 8.5 with 5.75" backspacing only ¼". Worst case a little Sawzall work ... see the Pinch Weld Mod link in my sig, that shows pics of the cutting I needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

Okay so what is the stock offset on the 2010 Pro4x? I took a look at the math and it would be 5.71? Not sure if I did that correctly.

Also, the more positive offset the more the rim will tuck inside the truck and the more negative the offset the farther it sticks out? I think I am reading this correctly but I am not sure.

So if for instance I went with a 20x9, 6x5.5 Offset: 18mm Backspace: 5.71. So I am losing 7mm of offset and .04 inches of backspace. Which would push my wheel .31" out side of the stock? If I like the more aggresive look this is what I want so either find something with lower offset or put a spacer in I guess? or could I just go with a wider rim like a 20x10, which would probably require more cutting and moding I am guessing.

So would I only have to do a 1.5" level for the Pro4x correct? I was reading I'm not suppose to do more to it. Anything higher I am going to have to go to a lift kit I would assume.

Those were the exact tires I was looking at getting as well. I've been reading as many of your posts as I can find. One of these days I will hopefully understand all of this as well as you do so I won't need the questions.

Sorry for all the questions but I appreciate all the help!
 

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Leveling it and putting some big 33's would do just as good as lifting and putting 35's in terms of MOST off roading. if you level and put 35's and go offroading your gonna have rubbing issues whenever you are flexing the suspension. I took my stock pro down a trail yesterday and its way better than having it lifted like my 06 was.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Leveling it and putting some big 33's would do just as good as lifting and putting 35's in terms of MOST off roading. if you level and put 35's and go offroading your gonna have rubbing issues whenever you are flexing the suspension. I took my stock pro down a trail yesterday and its way better than having it lifted like my 06 was.
If I were do 33s, then should I drop 18" wheels? I was just reading some more posts by NorCal it almost looks like doing 18s with either a 33 maybe easier with mods but I'm not sure. Like I said I am all new to this as this is my first truck so I just want to get all the info before I do something terribly wrong.
 

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Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

Okay so what is the stock offset on the 2010 Pro4x? I took a look at the math and it would be 5.71? Not sure if I did that correctly.

Also, the more positive offset the more the rim will tuck inside the truck and the more negative the offset the farther it sticks out? I think I am reading this correctly but I am not sure.

So if for instance I went with a 20x9, 6x5.5 Offset: 18mm Backspace: 5.71. So I am losing 7mm of offset and .04 inches of backspace. Which would push my wheel .31" out side of the stock? If I like the more aggresive look this is what I want so either find something with lower offset or put a spacer in I guess? or could I just go with a wider rim like a 20x10, which would probably require more cutting and moding I am guessing.

So would I only have to do a 1.5" level for the Pro4x correct? I was reading I'm not suppose to do more to it. Anything higher I am going to have to go to a lift kit I would assume.

Those were the exact tires I was looking at getting as well. I've been reading as many of your posts as I can find. One of these days I will hopefully understand all of this as well as you do so I won't need the questions.

Sorry for all the questions but I appreciate all the help!
The stock Pro-4x have close to a +25 mm offset, which on an 8" rim is 5.5" backspacing, (BS). If you measure an 8" rim it will be about 9", which is why the formula for backspacing is: [(rim width + 1 inch) / 2] + offset = 9/2 +25mm = 5.5"
Note: 1" = 25.4 mm

Yes, positive is more tucked ... a 6" BS has its inner most edge 6" in from the mounting surface of the rim, so is more 1/2" more tucked in then the 5.5" BS rim. But the rim's width also affects how far the outside edge will stick out. For example my aftermarket 8" rims with a 4.5" BS, stick out the same as a 9" rim with a 5.5" BS, and both will stick out 1" more than a stock 8" width rim with 5.5" BS.

20x9 +18 mm offset has a 5.71" BS, but often offsets are rounded off ... so 12 mm is 1/2", 18 mm is 3/4", and 6 mm is 1/4", and not every rim is going to measure exactly 1" wider than its nominal or advertised width. The important thing to know is that with a stock rim, or one with a combination of width and backspacing such that the outside edge sticks out the same or less will fit the taller tire, when compared to any rim that sticks out more from width, BS, or a wheel spacer. Tire width, especially the often not published, tread width matters too, but much less than tire height. This is why even stock height Titans have been said to be able to run a LT325/60R18 A/T's on stock rims, even though they are a very wide tire, but only 33" tall.

So a 9" with +18 mm off set, and about 5.71" BS will stick out about 0.75" to 0.8" more than the stock rim. This can be the difference between fitting without trimming or cutting the truck. But if you go to the common size of 9" wide with a -12 mm offset, 4.5" BS, pwm required with a 33 and even with a 35 on a Pro Comp stage 1 lift. Going to the 10" rim, and you might rub on the frame even after the pwm, and might have to cut the bumper cowls in some cases ... leveled with a 305/55R20.

1.5" PRG leveling kit, or with some Radflo coilovers you could probably lift it 2" maybe even 2.5" and it's with coil preload, so no coil bucket contact from the UCA's. PRG Radflo Stock Replacement 2.0" diameter coilovers. Or the PRG Radflo Stock Replacement 2.5" diameter coilovers
Both of these work with your stock UCA's, so save a lot of money compared to extended travel versions that require the PRG UCA's. These are a major suspension upgrade, and worth considering, even if you keep them at a leveling kit's height. They can help a little with fitting larger tires, but with the wrong rims even the bracket lifts will need the pwm, and bracket lifts move the front wheels forward by an inch.

I understand wanting to stick the rims out, and I decided to do the pinch weld, and bought a Sawzall knock off while waiting on the rims and tires. But there are limits on how much you can cut and have it help with leveled heights. Don't get a 10" unless you have something in the order of 9" of lift.
A 9" wide rim is best avoided on a leveling kit, but if go with one, get the +18 mm, not the -12 mm.

As far as 18's vs. 20's, 18's give an inch more sidewall under you for a given diameter tire vs. a 20, so ride nicer, and look way more agressive, although not as good as a 17, Lol. But an 18 on a leveled Titan with a 33" tire is going to have 7.5" sidewall where a 20 will only have 6.5". To have 7.5" a 20 would need 35's, but then the 18 would have 8.5" sidewalls ... the lean polite looking 20's just can't catch up.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

NorCal,

You are giving me so much information I am really having to get my research on for all of this. I think I have gotten a grip on all of it though. I was looking at your sig where you have the wheels and then haynboi posted his 17s with the big tires and I was like that looks so freaking good. So now I am thinking about going 17x8 like what you have but the backspacing is 4.97. Meading my tires would stick out just over 1/2 inch from the stop wheels. The issue is if I drop from 18s to 17s I have to buy new tires at the same time. So I was looking at a 17x8 wheel with 12mm offset and 4.97 backspacing. Amazon.com: American Racing Marin (Series AR339) Matte Black - 17 X 8 Inch Wheel: Automotive I really like this rim. Then going with the LT305/70R17E2 125R B. I'm guessing I would still have to the pwm due to the tire size. Correct?

1.5" PRG leveling kit, or with some Radflo coilovers you could probably lift it 2" maybe even 2.5" and it's with coil preload, so no coil bucket contact from the UCA's. PRG Radflo Stock Replacement 2.0" diameter coilovers.Or the PRG Radflo Stock Replacement 2.5" diameter coilovers
Both of these work with your stock UCA's, so save a lot of money compared to extended travel versions that require the PRG UCA's. These are a major suspension upgrade, and worth considering, even if you keep them at a leveling kit's height. They can help a little with fitting larger tires, but with the wrong rims even the bracket lifts will need the pwm, and bracket lifts move the front wheels forward by an inch.
I want clarification on this. I would do the 1.5" PRG leveling kit along with the 2.5" PRG Radflo stock replacements as well. This would give me a little mini lift almost to 2" possibly 2.5". Did I read this correctly? I would be willing to do the level and other work myself or would I better be left off to someone else doing this?

I get my bonus early next month so that's when I plan on getting this all done. Thanks again for all of your help! I think I am finally starting to understand most of this.
 

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Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

NorCal,

You are giving me so much information I am really having to get my research on for all of this. I think I have gotten a grip on all of it though. I was looking at your sig where you have the wheels and then haynboi posted his 17s with the big tires and I was like that looks so freaking good. So now I am thinking about going 17x8 like what you have but the backspacing is 4.97. Meading my tires would stick out just over 1/2 inch from the stop wheels. The issue is if I drop from 18s to 17s I have to buy new tires at the same time. So I was looking at a 17x8 wheel with 12mm offset and 4.97 backspacing. Amazon.com: American Racing Marin (Series AR339) Matte Black - 17 X 8 Inch Wheel: Automotive I really like this rim. Then going with the LT305/70R17E2 125R B. I'm guessing I would still have to the pwm due to the tire size. Correct?



I want clarification on this. I would do the 1.5" PRG leveling kit along with the 2.5" PRG Radflo stock replacements as well. This would give me a little mini lift almost to 2" possibly 2.5". Did I read this correctly? I would be willing to do the level and other work myself or would I better be left off to someone else doing this?

I get my bonus early next month so that's when I plan on getting this all done. Thanks again for all of your help! I think I am finally starting to understand most of this.
Most 17's won't fit over the newer Titan's upgraded brakes. So you would have to test fit locally if you want to go that route. I've heard that some of the Pro Comp rims 17's will work, but Idk. 4-wheel-Parts carries their rims, if you have one close.
I sort of remember something about a Robby Gordon and maybe the stock '04-'07 Off Road 17 working.

I think there is a good chance of the LT305/70R17 working on the OR rim without trimming because it is narrower 17x7.5, and has a 5.4" BS, (some have fit the 34.5" LT315/70R17 BFG A/T KO on them without trimming, but most have to), but with the Pro Comp, 1028, 7028, and 8128, they are 8.5" with 4.75" BS so you'd be trimming with the LT305/70R17s.

The LT295/70R17 is a great size and is 33.5" in the M/Ts and 33.2" in the A/Ts. Better chance of clearing with the A/T's on the PC rims if they fit your brakes.

The coilovers don't work with a leveling kit's mounting. Some coilovers can use a custom machined spacer, but then you would need to buy the PRG UCA's, (I say his because they provide the most clearance). If you were buying the PRG UCA, then you would want the extended travel version of the coilovers, and they are maximized in the length already.

If you want more than a coulple of inches, get a bracket lift, and the coilovers made for them.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

Most 17's won't fit over the newer Titan's upgraded brakes. So you would have to test fit locally if you want to go that route. I've heard that some of the Pro Comp rims 17's will work, but Idk. 4-wheel-Parts carries their rims, if you have one close.
I sort of remember something about a Robby Gordon and maybe the stock '04-'07 Off Road 17 working.

I think there is a good chance of the LT305/70R17 working on the OR rim without trimming because it is narrower 17x7.5, and has a 5.4" BS, (some have fit the 34.5" LT315/70R17 BFG A/T KO on them without trimming, but most have to), but with the Pro Comp, 1028, 7028, and 8128, they are 8.5" with 4.75" BS so you'd be trimming with the LT305/70R17s.

The LT295/70R17 is a great size and is 33.5" in the M/Ts and 33.2" in the A/Ts. Better chance of clearing with the A/T's on the PC rims if they fit your brakes.

The coilovers don't work with a leveling kit's mounting. Some coilovers can use a custom machined spacer, but then you would need to buy the PRG UCA's, (I say his because they provide the most clearance). If you were buying the PRG UCA, then you would want the extended travel version of the coilovers, and they are maximized in the length already.

If you want more than a coulple of inches, get a bracket lift, and the coilovers made for them.
Ohh okay. Yea I was looking at the 17s because it was so much easier to get an 8" rim that looking at 18s. In 18s they are mostly 9" wide which you said isn't good idea with just the leveling kit. I did find some 18x8.5 which I did seem to like. The other option is to bedline or powdercoat the stock pro4x rims and just change out the tires to a larger size if I wanted to. What if I went with one of these rims:

http://www.4wheelparts.com/Wheels/****-Cepek-Torque-Wheel.aspx?t_c=11&t_s=210&t_pt=100044&t_pl=10052&t_pn=M/T1088413
American Racing AR681 Element Wheel - Matte Black-RH2
American Racing AR321 Fuel Wheel - Glossy Black With Machined Lip-RH2
KMC KM127 Dime Wheel - Black w SS Lip-RH2

All are 18x8.5 but with different backspaces. 5.5, 4.97, 5.46, 5.14. I know we round the 4.97 to 5 I'm guessing. Which way would the 5.14 go? And then get either the LT275/70R18E1 125Q B or LT295/70R18E1 129Q B. Probably the 295 since its about $60 cheaper a tire at discount atleast. I can do some pwm for that discount.

I actually have a 4wheelparts here in Jacksonville nearby so that is convienient. I wonder if I got the PRG minilift kit if they would perform the install with the rims and tires at the same time.
 

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Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

Ohh okay. Yea I was looking at the 17s because it was so much easier to get an 8" rim that looking at 18s. In 18s they are mostly 9" wide which you said isn't good idea with just the leveling kit. I did find some 18x8.5 which I did seem to like. The other option is to bedline or powdercoat the stock pro4x rims and just change out the tires to a larger size if I wanted to. What if I went with one of these rims:

http://www.4wheelparts.com/Wheels/****-Cepek-Torque-Wheel.aspx?t_c=11&t_s=210&t_pt=100044&t_pl=10052&t_pn=M/T1088413
American Racing AR681 Element Wheel - Matte Black-RH2
American Racing AR321 Fuel Wheel - Glossy Black With Machined Lip-RH2
KMC KM127 Dime Wheel - Black w SS Lip-RH2

All are 18x8.5 but with different backspaces. 5.5, 4.97, 5.46, 5.14. I know we round the 4.97 to 5 I'm guessing. Which way would the 5.14 go? And then get either the LT275/70R18E1 125Q B or LT295/70R18E1 129Q B. Probably the 295 since its about $60 cheaper a tire at discount atleast. I can do some pwm for that discount.

I actually have a 4wheelparts here in Jacksonville nearby so that is convienient. I wonder if I got the PRG minilift kit if they would perform the install with the rims and tires at the same time.
Of the four that you've listed, the first and third one has the best backspacing for avoiding trimming, (same as stock's but sticks out 1/2" more than stock rims due to their extra 1/2" width), and the 2nd the worst, sticks out 1" more than stock, but the 4th, the Dime has about 5 1/8" backspacing, and has a pretty poor load capacity for a truck wheel at 1600 lbs, while the D!ck Cepek has best of the four at 2500 lbs.

These don't show their load capacity but They have 5.5" BS.
The XD Spy is a nice looking rim that comes in a 18x8.5 with about a 5.5" backspacing ... XD Spy

I also like the looks of the G-FX OR9 and the G-FX OR7 in the 18 mm offset, so they would have about about the stock 5.5" backspacing. 18x8.5" rims at Discount Tire Direct

That's kinda strange on the price difference on the Trails, but I probably already mentioned the torque converter slow to lock into OD issue I have with my 34's, so for my truck I would definitely pick the LT275/70R18, but especially if I had the 2.94 gears ... but I would probably pick the 32.8" LT285/65R18's if I had the 2.94's gears, and just not raise it as much, but since you have a PRo-4x, then you have the 3.36 gears like I have.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: 7" CST lift or 1.5" PRG level

Of the four that you've listed, the first and third one has the best backspacing for avoiding trimming, (same as stock's but sticks out 1/2" more than stock rims due to their extra 1/2" width), and the 2nd the worst, sticks out 1" more than stock, but the 4th, the Dime has about 5 1/8" backspacing, and has a pretty poor load capacity for a truck wheel at 1600 lbs, while the D!ck Cepek has best of the four at 2500 lbs.

These don't show their load capacity but They have 5.5" BS.
The XD Spy is a nice looking rim that comes in a 18x8.5 with about a 5.5" backspacing ... XD Spy

I also like the looks of the G-FX OR9 and the G-FX OR7 in the 18 mm offset, so they would have about about the stock 5.5" backspacing. 18x8.5" rims at Discount Tire Direct

That's kinda strange on the price difference on the Trails, but I probably already mentioned the torque converter slow to lock into OD issue I have with my 34's, so for my truck I would definitely pick the LT275/70R18, but especially if I had the 2.94 gears ... but I would probably pick the 32.8" LT285/65R18's if I had the 2.94's gears, and just not raise it as much, but since you have a PRo-4x, then you have the 3.36 gears like I have.
iPad is so slow now. I really like those second rims from discount tire. I don't like the XDs because of the massive XD on the hub. Drives me insane. I would prolly go with the MB because of the $50 price difference.

I read your posts on the gear ratio but didn't really understand the gear issue that was the issue. Realize there is an issue just how or why. I like the lt285s discount tire just doesn't sell them was then issue.
 

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Well, looks like you're in good hands with NorCal's knowledge... I just want to add tha if you want to use your truck for off-reading and not as a pavement princess, do not get 20's... please... Optimize your tire to rim ratio, it'll ride a whole lot better. Get the minimal rims you need to clear everything and get the most rubber you can to clear the wheel wells. The tires themselves will help your suspension take the impacts and provide a smoother ride both on and off road... Plus, if you need to air down, you'll have more rubber to ride on vs. dropping to the lips of your rims. I look watching idiots with $ try to figure out why their Hummer w/ 22's ride like schit around town, as well as the same idiots scratching their heads while standing along the jeep trail with a blown bead...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Well, looks like you're in good hands with NorCal's knowledge... I just want to add tha if you want to use your truck for off-reading and not as a pavement princess, do not get 20's... please... Optimize your tire to rim ratio, it'll ride a whole lot better. Get the minimal rims you need to clear everything and get the most rubber you can to clear the wheel wells. The tires themselves will help your suspension take the impacts and provide a smoother ride both on and off road... Plus, if you need to air down, you'll have more rubber to ride on vs. dropping to the lips of your rims. I look watching idiots with $ try to figure out why their Hummer w/ 22's ride like schit around town, as well as the same idiots scratching their heads while standing along the jeep trail with a blown bead...
Haha yea. I came to the conclusion big rims 1 aren't all that great and 2 don't have the aggressive big rubber tire look that I am going for. So I think I am going to go with G-FX OR7 18x8.5 keep the stock tires for now. I've read most people have to replace around 25k miles anyway. Upgrade to the Nitto Terra Grapplers. With the suspension after reading a ton and doing some trolling on the forums I think I may go with the idea NorCal had earlier with upgrading the shocks rather than doing a lift. I'm thinking of getting the 4WD Extended Travel Package from PRG getting upgrading to the Radflos. I can get about 2"-3" from that. The only question is could I get teh Deaver Titan C-10 3-Leaf Spring pack and new PRG shackles to get a little more lift in the back as well with the new shocks. I've been trying to read and figure that out. Concerns or thoughts?
 

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2.5" of lift on a 4wd, but if that's too much for you, the shackle can lower the back 1/2", and 1". as well as 0". If not enough for you, you can get a 1" block, or get the C-30, (3.5" of lift on a 4wd).

If you follow the the link in my sig for Black Rock Vipers, The 1st pic is at 2.5" with 0" rear lift and the 2nd and 3rd pics are with 4" and 0" rear lift, so that might help you decide if you want a block or Deavers in the back.

Greg has different lengths of rear shocks for whatever you decide.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
2.5" of lift on a 4wd, but if that's too much for you, the shackle can lower the back 1/2", and 1". as well as 0". If not enough for you, you can get a 1" block, or get the C-30, (3.5" of lift on a 4wd).

If you follow the the link in my sig for Black Rock Vipers, The 1st pic is at 2.5" with 0" rear lift and the 2nd and 3rd pics are with 4" and 0" rear lift, so that might help you decide if you want a block or Deavers in the back.

Greg has different lengths of rear shocks for whatever you decide.
Okay so I can get all of them together, that's what I was curious about. So if I went the C-30 I would just need longer shocks in the rear to make up for it, which I know Greg would get the correct length to cover me. I like the height of yours with the 4" in the front but would like the back to prolly be up an 1" instead of at 0.

But the way yours looks is how I would like to get to.

Hope you are having a good holiday!
 
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