[musicmanmk2004]

Hey guys, I had my 05 4x4 crew cab aligned a couple weeks ago and when they were finished they came back to me with some out of spec numbers on my print out. They claimed I needed a cam bolt kit to get it within spec and it would be over $200. I recall reading that these trucks did not come with the adjustable bolts so it didnt strike me as odd. I opted not to do the kit as it was only out a degree or so. WELL, I was planning to get new tires next week and I've been tracking how these ones have been doing and they are getting tore up. . I believe it is a toe issue BUT it got me thinkin, I want my camber adjustment spot on with the other specs if im gonna spend the money on new tires. I crawled under the truck and looked at my bolts, I believe I have adjustable cam bolts already. WTH Sears? I know this topic has been beaten to death but I want to be 100% certain I am right not mistaken before I have sears either adjust it or request a refund. Can someone please correct me or confirm that I am correct based on the pics below. Thank you, I appreciate it.

 

[LaxDfns15]

Those look like my adjustable cam bolts.

 

[musicmanmk2004]

Those look like my adjustable cam bolts.

Perfect, Thanks for the reply. just dont want to go in and try to have it adjusted again, and look like an idiot if I was incorrect.

 

[FishnAlaska]

Yeah they had adjustable bolts until mid year 06, Sears is full of sh1t, get a refund.

 

[LSturbointeg]

You can see there's plenty of adjustment on those cambolts but i think they just don't want to do it

 

[musicmanmk2004]

thanks for the reply's guys. I appreciate it. I had a feeling that they were trying to take advantage. . it just didn't strike me as odd because I had read they were non adjustable but when I got under there I realized. what sucks is they got me twice, I had both of my trucks aligned within a week period and I can tell ya they didn't do a great job on my 69 pickup but it was way out before. at least better now. Maybe a double refund request is in order.


Also, from the pic the cam bolt is in the middle of its adjustment right? meaning it can be adjusted a few degrees either positive or negative from where its at currently? no reason they cant get a degree or so out of it right?

 

[Nick Name]

Every truck will be different, but .......Generally....camber issues have more impact on bushings than on tire wear.....and the tire wear that does happen is the result of really out of whack geometry that works on the edge of a tire, not a degree or two. Bad camber tends to create 'wander'. If you're lifted, then a shop that specializes may be a better bet for a good result.

Your ragged edge tread wear in such a short time tells me that they screwed up your toe more than anything. Both outside tread lines ragged, too much toe in. Both inside tread lines ragged...too much toe out. Whole tire showing ragged tread blocks or cupping....suspension issue that alignment won't fix. You can check that yourself with a tape measure.....outside to outside tires edge front should be approx 1/4" (3mm) less than outside to outside rear edge measured at the tire's equators. Have a helper times two hold a level at the outside equator of each wheel and take your measurements. An old shadetree trick for street vehicles used in road racing... is to make a 'story stick' for front tire equator set up when toe is set correctly for street and a second one for the track set up so you can change the toe easily at the track. Comes in handy when you DIY swap tie rods out at home in the garage. Once the stick is made, you can do everything yourself without helpers.

 

[musicmanmk2004]

Every truck will be different, but .......Generally....camber issues have more impact on bushings than on tire wear.....and the tire wear that does happen is the result of really out of whack geometry that works on the edge of a tire, not a degree or two. Bad camber tends to create 'wander'. If you're lifted, then a shop that specializes may be a better bet for a good result.

Your ragged edge tread wear in such a short time tells me that they screwed up your toe more than anything. Both outside tread lines ragged, too much toe in. Both inside tread lines ragged...too much toe out. Whole tire showing ragged tread blocks or cupping....suspension issue that alignment won't fix. You can check that yourself with a tape measure.....outside to outside tires edge front should be approx 1/4" (3mm) less than outside to outside rear edge measured at the tire's equators. Have a helper times two hold a level at the outside equator of each wheel and take your measurements. An old shadetree trick for street vehicles used in road racing... is to make a 'story stick' for front tire equator set up when toe is set correctly for street and a second one for the track set up so you can change the toe easily at the track. Comes in handy when you DIY swap tie rods out at home in the garage. Once the stick is made, you can do everything yourself without helpers.

I do believe it is a toe issue causing the tire wear. I was just looking at getting new tires and the fact that I had camber got me thinking I wanted it adjusted so it was in spec when I had the toe issue addressed. that was where the cam bolt discussion came up. It sucks that we have to do this stuff ourselves. I am confident I could align it with your advice, it just sucks that you cant trust a shop to do it when they have all the fancy machines, take your money and just dont have competent employees. Before I posted I actually had made an appointment for today at a different sears "I spoke to the tech and he didn't seem like an idiot". I guess well see if they say I need cam bolts or not. If they pull the same game, I will request a refund and go from there.

 

[Nick Name]

I have aligned using just an electronic protractor like they sell at Harbor Freight and a tape measure. Caster, camber and toe can all be done that way if you have the specs and a calculator. Make sure the tech doing the alignment is the one the shop certified to do them. He'll have an ASE patch on his shirt that displays that or the certificate they show on the wall will have his name on it. If not, go to a Midas, National Tire, Pep Boys...whatever to get a tech that is certified on the equipment they're using....laser or LED only.

 

[musicmanmk2004]

So another question for you guys. Seriously appreciating your help. Figured I would just ask in this same thread since I already had it started. I got the truck re aligned at a different location and they adjusted the camber and showed it in spec.Truck seemed to drive pretty well so I went and got some new tires. I got the new Falken Wildpeak AT3W. These things are nice.

Well I dont see any abnormal wear or anything which is nice but I have a pull to the right again. Which is the original reason I went in for an alignment to begin with. It will sometimes will change lanes if I let go of the wheel. Did my tire change effect the front end? shouldn't that all be the same. didn't change the tire size, same height, same width etc just different brand and an all terrain. . I was under the truck last night running a back up camera so I started inspecting everything. Everything visually looks good. The only thing I haven't witnessed before is the tie rods I can grab by hand and rotate on the spindle side back and forth. They arent loose by any means but idk if thats normal to be able to move them while they are installed/attached.

Other thing I'm wondering, would worn shocks cause a pull?

Heres the tires if anyone cares to see em

 

[Nick Name]

An alignment is not an adjustment of the wheels and tires, it is an adjustment of the suspension components. I can't imagine any tech even starting the alignment without checking tie rods, ball joints, links, control arm bushings etc. since you can't align broken or worn parts. It won't hold.
Assuming all is done correctly...there are reasons for a pull or drift (a pull you feel in the steering wheel, drift you don't) that aren't caused by the suspension being out of alignment. Incorrect tire pressure in one or more tires, bad wheel bearing, road surface grooves or valleys, road surface crowning (almost always drifts to the right), brake issues: worn pins, inner caliper piston ring, glides or slides interfering with retraction of the pads, slop in steering wheel to rack connection parts.

Worn strut or coil over systems can also create a caster issue and most techs don't inspect for the problem because it requires removal and testing on equipment that isn't cost effective and requires some disassembly to do accurate testing. It's easier to do a visual and age/mileage determination and replace with all new.

Caster is more important than camber for steering and even if perfect while sitting can change on the road when moving due to the wear issue. Positive caster is what allows you to ride your bike with no hands. It is no different on four wheel vehicles. If you don't have enough positive caster (forks too little angle toward the front) the car will wander and feel unstable. If you have too much positive caster, the vehicle will be harder to turn. However, just like with camber, vehicle pull is not caused by too much or too little caster, but by side to side imbalance. As far as we know, all four wheel vehicles are designed with positive caster (forks out towards the front at the bottom). So the vehicle would pull to the side with the "fork" further back. Again, caster, like camber can cause pulls, but caster will rarely cause much wear. Camber and caster will cause your vehicle to pull if they're uneven, but will cause little tire wear, while toe in won't cause your vehicle to pull, but can cause extremely fast tire wear.

 

[carbonduc27]

I will add my experience and maybe it can help you:

I have a pull to the right and I also have a vague steering feeling that changes somewhat when i am towing. I guess the added weight in the back changes the camber of the fromt wheels a little since the weight is taken off the front.

I went to SEARS as well (had a groupon) and was going to have the install 2 new front tires and do an alignment. Upon seeing my truck they said they could not work on a 2006 titan - no fear edition ("factory" lift) because "their computer was not updated to cover that truck". Seriously! You have not updated your computer since 2006! What a bunch of bull. I was furious and ended up going to my local mom and pop shop.

He installed the tires and balanced them but said I had worn inner tie rods and left front wheel bearing. Those were actually the only things I have not replaced in the suspension so I believe him. The wheel bearing "flopping" around would certainly affect steering and sloppy tie rods would lead to strange steering wheel feeling.

I have the parts and will be installing next week so i will let you know if that fixes my pulling

 

[musicmanmk2004]

An alignment is not an adjustment of the wheels and tires, it is an adjustment of the suspension components. I can't imagine any tech even starting the alignment without checking tie rods, ball joints, links, control arm bushings etc. since you can't align broken or worn parts. It won't hold.
Assuming all is done correctly...there are reasons for a pull or drift (a pull you feel in the steering wheel, drift you don't) that aren't caused by the suspension being out of alignment. Incorrect tire pressure in one or more tires, bad wheel bearing, road surface grooves or valleys, road surface crowning (almost always drifts to the right), brake issues: worn pins, inner caliper piston ring, glides or slides interfering with retraction of the pads, slop in steering wheel to rack connection parts.

Worn strut or coil over systems can also create a caster issue and most techs don't inspect for the problem because it requires removal and testing on equipment that isn't cost effective and requires some disassembly to do accurate testing. It's easier to do a visual and age/mileage determination and replace with all new.

Caster is more important than camber for steering and even if perfect while sitting can change on the road when moving due to the wear issue. Positive caster is what allows you to ride your bike with no hands. It is no different on four wheel vehicles. If you don't have enough positive caster (forks too little angle toward the front) the car will wander and feel unstable. If you have too much positive caster, the vehicle will be harder to turn. However, just like with camber, vehicle pull is not caused by too much or too little caster, but by side to side imbalance. As far as we know, all four wheel vehicles are designed with positive caster (forks out towards the front at the bottom). So the vehicle would pull to the side with the "fork" further back. Again, caster, like camber can cause pulls, but caster will rarely cause much wear. Camber and caster will cause your vehicle to pull if they're uneven, but will cause little tire wear, while toe in won't cause your vehicle to pull, but can cause extremely fast tire wear.

Ok that makes sense but I dont understand how to apply it. You seem to know far more about this than I do so I really appreciate your help. My next steps were to head back and check alignment again but now im reconsidering. . Should I pull the wheels and check to see if my caliper slide pins are greased well enough? I just did front brakes a few thousand miles ago and it was pulling prior to that. Check wheel bearings, if i recall I would jack up the side im checking and grab the wheel at 12 and 6 and try to rock it. . if no play they are good but at this point should I pull them to grease them regardless? Lastly I am thinking the shocks are stock from 05. . and thinking this might be where my issue is coming from . . they seem to ride ok but I can only speculate since I just bought the truck about 2 years ago so idk how it should ride I guess. Im trying to buy a house so dont want to replace them unless its gonna most likely fix this issue. I attached the alignment spec sheet also.

I will add my experience and maybe it can help you:

I have a pull to the right and I also have a vague steering feeling that changes somewhat when i am towing. I guess the added weight in the back changes the camber of the fromt wheels a little since the weight is taken off the front.

I went to SEARS as well (had a groupon) and was going to have the install 2 new front tires and do an alignment. Upon seeing my truck they said they could not work on a 2006 titan - no fear edition ("factory" lift) because "their computer was not updated to cover that truck". Seriously! You have not updated your computer since 2006! What a bunch of bull. I was furious and ended up going to my local mom and pop shop.

He installed the tires and balanced them but said I had worn inner tie rods and left front wheel bearing. Those were actually the only things I have not replaced in the suspension so I believe him. The wheel bearing "flopping" around would certainly affect steering and sloppy tie rods would lead to strange steering wheel feeling.

I have the parts and will be installing next week so i will let you know if that fixes my pulling

I honestly can see why Sears is going under, sad because they had so much going on for them. They told me the same thing for my 1969 Chevy pickup. . I can believe they dont have specs for that year but I informed them to alight it to any Pickup from 1973-87 because I had a newer front end and they too said they didn't have that year span in the system. It got worse from there. . I think its bad/lazy employees more so than bad technology. If you could let me know what you find I'd appreciate it. . my steering wheel doesn't feel funny really, just that I have to hold it to the left almost constantly to keep from switching lanes. . still drives well just wants to go right.

 

[Nick Name]

I looked at your alignment sheet. You don't have an alignment problem.

My point in explaining as I did, you are looking at 'items' to fix and not registering the system mentally to find cause and effect, IE: this isn't DIY if the 'fix' doesn't fix it. You need to find yourself, as @Carbon... did, a reliable mom and pop shop. Preferably someone with race suspension experience, gray hair, and a real desire to locate all issues they find, present them and let you decide your next steps you can afford to take.

I'm almost 70...experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. All troubleshooting is based on a series of steps to eliminate what could be the problem until there's only one thing left....and that's the problem that you fix. If a new problem presents itself, then you start over at the beginning and follow the same order until you find the cause, and fix it. Throwing darts only result in a bullseye every once in a while....and chain shops, for the most part, throw darts.

 

[musicmanmk2004]

I looked at your alignment sheet. You don't have an alignment problem.

My point in explaining as I did, you are looking at 'items' to fix and not registering the system mentally to find cause and effect, IE: this isn't DIY if the 'fix' doesn't fix it. You need to find yourself, as @Carbon... did, a reliable mom and pop shop. Preferably someone with race suspension experience, gray hair, and a real desire to locate all issues they find, present them and let you decide your next steps you can afford to take.

I'm almost 70...experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. All troubleshooting is based on a series of steps to eliminate what could be the problem until there's only one thing left....and that's the problem that you fix. If a new problem presents itself, then you start over at the beginning and follow the same order until you find the cause, and fix it. Throwing darts only result in a bullseye every once in a while....and chain shops, for the most part, throw darts.

That makes perfect sense. . I am fairly handy and can usually find and fix most issues. . just this one is escaping me. the reason why I keep looking at alignment is because when I went to one Sears, they gave me an "In" and "Out" spec. than when I went to another they gave me a different "In" than what the previous "out" spec was. So it just made me wonder how accurate their calibrations were.

Another reason im on here looking for help is im not as familiar with newer trucks as I am older. . Sure some stuff is the same but some is different so I try to do my homework with folks such as yourself who have obviously been around and fixed far more than me. From the visual inspection under the truck everything looks great, bushings are in great shape, boots are still good etc. .