Extremely VERY Interesting.

I hope one of the gear heads can figure this one out.
________
VAPORIZER AFFILIATE PROGRAM

 

I wonder if the new QX56 TB's are any bigger then the Titan....same motor so it should fit just fine as long as it's the same volt signal.

 

It may work! the 5.6 is a bored and stroked version of the 4.5. Very interesting!

 

They would first have to be modified for the cable-less throttle plate actuator that our trucks use. Machining up an adapter/spacer for the manifold would be the easy part.

 

Maybe try pm'ing titanengineer about it.

 

I'm thinking this 90mm throttle body could be retrofitted rather easily by someone with moderate engine experience. Getting whatever information for BOTH the Q45 Infiniti (car) and Titan from someone with access could make this mod much easier to plan for; we need physical dimensions, part numbers, pics, drawings, schematics, any known problems, clearance issues, etc... of throttle body assemblies, intake manifolds, any available TPS components of the TB assembly. Probably different harness connections so Pin-out specs of the harnesses could be useful as well.

I'm doing this mod if I can get some good info to help get me started, or I find the data myself. Just think about having a 4"+ inside diameter intake tube with a big K&N cone filter on the end feeding air to this 90 mm throttle body. To get any better air flow in, a person would then have to do intake work. Not me, I'm ready to take this project on...probably best to call this "Hillbilly Volant Stage II".

 

Also...that is off a 1990??? Q45. I'd want to see what the new ones are bored too.....also...the QX56 that rates higher HP then the Titan....if it's bored over it should be a direct bolt on.

 

Don't know what the later model Q45 TB's were like but maybe somebody does???

The throttle body is same for QX56 and Titan, ecu bumps the curves different, maybe head/piston/cam difference for big bumps (like Z car), typical for all of NNA's engine platforms.

 

I personally think everyone is barking up the wrong tree here. Performance vehicles all around use a little smaller throttle body then most expect as the air increases inspeed it can actually deliver for air/fuel.

I think 20mm is a HUGE difference and the Titan would starve for air and fuel

 

parond me if im wrong but if your intake manifold is still 70MM wont that restrict airflow just as much as having the stock TB. 90MM going into 70MM Intake manifold? might have to get the manny ported and polished while your at it

 

Well I'd say that I wish you lots of luck in what I woudl call a difficult task.

I'd much rather see us concentrate on a new intake than TB.

 

I'm just interested in getting the maximum amount of airflow into the collector (which can't be modified since it is injection molded). As long as the transition from the 90mm TB to the collector opening is smooth and shaped to promote laminar air flow then the collector will get as much air as it can handle and the goal will be attained.

Don't know if a later year model infiniti/nissan throttle body that is driven "by wire" like our Titans would be easier to retrofit as long as it is significantly larger than our current TB. A "smooth transition" spacer adaptor plate and the intake pipe/filter to supply cold air is pretty straightforward and plans for these can be finalized once a BIG TB is identified to work with.

There's a lot of really good people on this forum that can probably help so I'll keep bumping this along...

 

It may work! the 5.6 is a bored and stroked version of the 4.5. Very interesting!

I said it before and it's a FACT. The 5.6 is NOT based on, or built from the 4.5. It is a totally different family of engines.

Besides that, what gains could you get using a larger TB when the intake is matched to the TB? Check it out. The intake is about 72mm and the TB is about 70.

 

I said it before and it's a FACT. The 5.6 is NOT based on, or built from the 4.5. It is a totally different family of engines.

Besides that, what gains could you get using a larger TB when the intake is matched to the TB? Check it out. The intake is about 72mm and the TB is about 70.

Correct, the 4.5 and the 5.6 are completely different motors built on completely different platforms. I would love to see someone do this just for the sake of it being done, but unfortunately I would severely doubt any gains would be seen, without ECU modifications, intake modifications, and a bigger fuel pump.

again, I would like to see it done, just because it has not been done, please keep us up to date if you decide to do this

 

Uh, you guys questioning the relationship between the 4.5 and 5.6 engines might want to peruse the attached SAE Technical Paper on the 5.6. It's a fact, excuse my use of emphasis, that the 5.6 is clearly derived from the 4.5 and shares most of the same development background and many of the same parts.

I have posted this paper several times before, and will do so again if the issue persists. Sorry to disagree. Read what the development engineers had to say.

 

Uh, you guys questioning the relationship between the 4.5 and 5.6 engines might want to peruse the attached SAE Technical Paper on the 5.6. It's a fact, excuse my use of emphasis, that the 5.6 is clearly derived from the 4.5 and shares most of the same development background and many of the same parts.

I have posted this paper several times before, and will do so again if the issue persists. Sorry to disagree. Read what the development engineers had to say.

Maybe I stated what I was trying to say wrong. The 5.6 is DERIVED from the 4.5, they started with the same design and then changed it to a different platform, There was no need to reinvent the wheel when they already had a great V8 motor; However beyond the fact that the motor on paper would seem to be a bored and stroked version of the 4.5 it is drastically different in about every other aspect. If you read into this article you will see that the design of the intake manifold (kind of important to this thread) was designed around the basis of the new block design with the intake ports optimized for low end torque. And I can repeat that statement with ever other aspect of the motor from the bore to the exhaust. Which brings me back to saying that the 5.6 is a different motor, different platform than the 4.5, it is derived, but since none of the engine components are compatible with each other, I beleive that is a moot point.

 

Yeah I was closr to buying some heads that were said to be VK56DE heads on eBay about a year ago. Only after posting did I realize that the intake and exhaust ports were cut differently. At that point I relaized that simuliar on paper was not fitting in real life.

Hey Titanengineer...how about "on time and to spec" with the codes to manipulate an 04 ECU for torque control and shifts? Please? How about a fix for the 4700rpm HP drop?

Really seriously need help to beat those hemi's in the 1/4 mile.

 

I wish I had access to any of that, you would know about it, but I do not. I just hope somebody like Edge is out there trying to change that

 

Maybe I stated what I was trying to say wrong. The 5.6 is DERIVED from the 4.5, they started with the same design and then changed it to a different platform, There was no need to reinvent the wheel when they already had a great V8 motor; However beyond the fact that the motor on paper would seem to be a bored and stroked version of the 4.5 it is drastically different in about every other aspect. If you read into this article you will see that the design of the intake manifold (kind of important to this thread) was designed around the basis of the new block design with the intake ports optimized for low end torque. And I can repeat that statement with ever other aspect of the motor from the bore to the exhaust. Which brings me back to saying that the 5.6 is a different motor, different platform than the 4.5, it is derived, but since none of the engine components are compatible with each other, I beleive that is a moot point.

I must respectfully take you to task on your statement. Reasonable minds can disagree. I don't know how you are using the phrase "platform." To me that normally means the group of body styles from which similar models are produced - such as the QX56 and Armada being built on the same platform - the same unibody chassis for cars or for us the same frame and basic body panel configuration. Certain Ford, Mercury Lincoln models (and other manufacturers) are build on the same platform, like the Explorer/Mountaneer or Expedition/Navigator.

I think of engines in families. Example. Small block pushrod Chevy's - 265, 283, 305, 307, 327, 350, 400, etc. They all are derived from the same basic design, yet they use different length connecting rods, have different bore and stroke configurations, use different size pistons, different skirt lengths, different compositon of crankshafts (some cast, some forged), different camshaft profiles, and yes, different heads with different porting and different exhaust manifolds, different carburetor or fuel injection systems, etc.

The same can be said for the big block GM's 396, 454, etc, or Chrysler's small blocks, 273, 340, 360, etc. The list goes on and on.

The 4.5 Infiniti and the 5.6 Nissan Endurance engines fit into this same scheme as member of the same very closely related family based on similar design and engineering considerations. That is my point.

Are a GM 454 big block and a 350 small block a part of the same group of engines? No. Is the 426 real Hemi and the 340 small block a part of the same group of engines? No. But things get more interesting when you think of the big block Chryslers - 383, 426 Wedge, 440 and the true Hemi, where there are very strong similarities between the Hemi and those engines even though the cylinder head is radically different.

My point: I don't know what you mean by "platform" but in my book the 4.5 and 5.6 Nissans belong together the same way that 260, 289 and 302 Ford small blocks belong together or the other families of engines listed above.

Having said all of that and getting back on point: I concur that a bigger throttle body is not going to produce beneficial gains on our engine without major changes to the entire intake and exhaust flow in my humble opinion.

 

parond me if im wrong but if your intake manifold is still 70MM wont that restrict airflow just as much as having the stock TB. 90MM going into 70MM Intake manifold? might have to get the manny ported and polished while your at it

Totally true.. If you bolt a 90mm TB on a 70mm intake its useless. Unless you port match the intake manifold to fit... Back in the day when 5.0 Mustangs upgraded to a bigger TB you always had to put a spacer between the TB. i.e. 65mm TB taper to a 60mm stock intake. While you are at it. You might wanna just get the intake manifold thats made for the 90mm TB.

 

I must respectfully take you to task on your statement. Reasonable minds can disagree. I don't know how you are using the phrase "platform." To me that normally means the group of body styles from which similar models are produced - such as the QX56 and Armada being built on the same platform - the same unibody chassis for cars or for us the same frame and basic body panel configuration. Certain Ford, Mercury Lincoln models (and other manufacturers) are build on the same platform, like the Explorer/Mountaneer or Expedition/Navigator.

I think of engines in families. Example. Small block pushrod Chevy's - 265, 283, 305, 307, 327, 350, 400, etc. They all are derived from the same basic design, yet they use different length connecting rods, have different bore and stroke configurations, use different size pistons, different skirt lengths, different compositon of crankshafts (some cast, some forged), different camshaft profiles, and yes, different heads with different porting and different exhaust manifolds, different carburetor or fuel injection systems, etc.

The same can be said for the big block GM's 396, 454, etc, or Chrysler's small blocks, 273, 340, 360, etc. The list goes on and on.

The 4.5 Infiniti and the 5.6 Nissan Endurance engines fit into this same scheme as member of the same very closely related family based on similar design and engineering considerations. That is my point.

Are a GM 454 big block and a 350 small block a part of the same group of engines? No. Is the 426 real Hemi and the 340 small block a part of the same group of engines? No. But things get more interesting when you think of the big block Chryslers - 383, 426 Wedge, 440 and the true Hemi, where there are very strong similarities between the Hemi and those engines even though the cylinder head is radically different.

My point: I don't know what you mean by "platform" but in my book the 4.5 and 5.6 Nissans belong together the same way that 260, 289 and 302 Ford small blocks belong together or the other families of engines listed above.

Having said all of that and getting back on point: I concur that a bigger throttle body is not going to produce beneficial gains on our engine without major changes to the entire intake and exhaust flow in my humble opinion.

I think we are disagreeing that we agree... If that makes since. I am using platform as the motors were designed to perform differently to better suit a different platform of vehicle. I did not use the family wording because you are 100% correct that they are for all engineering purposes both are from the same family of engines.

The reason why I even commented against what you said in the first place, is for the reason that we have both already stated: for all intensive purposes any relation in the motors is irrelevent to this thread.

Anyway now that we have succesfully hijacked this thread....

 

Re: BIG Throttle Body (BIG TB) project for Titan

Ditto TitanEngineer, let's keep this thread on topic please!! Thanks for the PM also and I agree completely with everything you said above.
Here was my last post on 8/30 to help us get back on task people (sorry, not trying to offend anyone)...

"""I'm just interested in getting the maximum amount of airflow into the collector (which can't be modified since it is injection molded). As long as the transition from the 90mm TB to the collector opening is smooth and shaped to promote laminar air flow then the collector will get as much air as it can handle and the goal will be attained.
Don't know if a later year model infiniti/nissan throttle body that is driven "by wire" like our Titans would be easier to retrofit as long as it is significantly larger than our current TB. A "smooth transition" spacer adaptor plate and the intake pipe/filter to supply cold air is pretty straightforward and plans for these can be finalized once a BIG TB is identified to work with.
There's a lot of really good people on this forum that can probably help so I'll keep bumping this along..."""

BIG TB REQUIREMENTS STATEMENT;
O.K., so far we have the following SO FAR about this mod; intake air flows through the TB (stock TB bore is 70mm) into the plastic collector (72mm bore), where the air is then distributed to the 8 individual runners and on to the Intake manifold, etc..., BIG TB mod hasn't been done on this forum (or the other forums)to anyone's knowledge, we don't know FOR SURE what the improvement would be. (Any corrections to this REQUIREMENTS STATEMENT please PM me, thanks!!)

I'M TRYING TO KEEP THIS SIMPLE SO I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN IDENTIFYING AND THEN FINDING A SIGNIFICANTLY LARGER BORE TB REPLACEMENT (USED OEM PART = LOW $)(INFINITI/NISSAN) THAT ALREADY HAS AS MUCH OF THE CURRENT TITAN TB FUNCTIONALITY (SERVO DRIVEN THROTTLE PLATE, TPS, etc...) AS POSSIBLE TO CUT DOWN ON THE AMOUNT OF CUSTOM WIRING/PLUMBING MODS TO MAKE IT WORK ON MY 04 TITAN. If I don't get any valid suggestions of specific TB's that meet these requirements (part #, make, model, year) I'll have to press forward with an older 90mm like in the original post. Surely some Nissan/Infiiniti mechanic would be the best help here so if you know one send them to me PLEASE!!!

I'm all about bang for the buck so used parts is what it will be for the BIG TB project.

Not trying to be mean, ugly, uncaring, insensitive, etc... but anyone with any experience will know a TB bore larger than our stock 70mm will provide a performance gain. Don't know how much yet, don't care to know how much you might GUESS it will be, why you think if won't/will, etc... You can argue all you want, throw rocks, etc... JUST DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE AND PLEASE NOT ON THIS THREAD!!!!!!
If you're not here to help just sit back and please "read only".

Thanks, and have a nice day!!!

 

Here's some good examples of this mod on some other engines with less displacement than the Titan...
http://www.livesockets.com/quoc/rb/13_intercooler/index.htm#Modified Throttle Body
http://www.injectedperformance.com/ViewProduct.aspx?ID=733
...this next one has the note about the Q45 TB at the bottom of the page in the mods section (looks like a novel)...
http://tunerzine.com/articles.php?id=184
Yes, this 90mm Q45 throttle body is a popular mod that is used by both turbo and non-turbo tuners, usually with a GReddy (Trust) intake plenum or custom intake to fit their application. In the next GReddy link notice the adaptor flange (weld on) for an aluminum intake (RB25DET ECR33 Throttle adapter weld on adapter to use Q45 thro. 13920450 87.50)...
http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=engine&SubCategory=44
...this flange or this one...
http://www.rigidracing.com/
...might be the ticket to "help" button the BIG TB up to our stock plastic collector/intake, but will probably take an additional flange or completely custom flange to provide a smooth transition to the intake. Waiting on service manual pics right now to keep planning this mod.

Since the QX56 throttle bodies (+2mm) cost too much ($474 + ship) ...
http://www.trademotion.com/shopping...d=10024&subgroupid=61875&componentid=0&make=14&model=Qx56&year=2005&catalogid=1

Right now I'm leaning heavy to the original '93 Q45 TB since it is Infiniti and the TPS wiring would be more straightforward. Hopefully, the electronically controlled throttle (servo?) on the Titan TB could be retrofitted onto the Q TB, but not sure yet how hard that will be. Back-up plan would be to convert to an old fashioned throttle cable but that would be a real headache.

After reading the SAE paper from Armada earlier in this thread, it would be interesting to leave the stock intake alone since it looks VERY efficient, and the author claims our engine could be easily tuned for much more power. I doubt they would invest in tooling up a different intake if they did bump the power up sometime in the future, but have already designed that safety factor into the existing intake. I know a little bit about their business since I worked for NNA at both the Smyrna and Decherd assembly plants for 12 years, mostly engine and powertrain processes. I'll be the first one to say I don't know it all or pretend to, so any help or advice from those of you with some knowledge of TB workings would be appreciated.

I'm definitely going to have to get more info about the titan's TB to collector joint before buying anything...

 

Re: BIG TB for Titan

just found a good pic of our collector/intake...
http://www2.dupont.com/Automotive/en_US/assets/images/newsEvents/article20040308e-1_high.jpg
doesn't look like much could be done with this, except to come up with a "ported" adaptor flange that would allow BIG TB to be mounted and see what we get.

Anyway, the most pressing issue is what it takes to retrofit the BIG TB to function with the existing systems, any TB gurus out there??

 

Being a machinist in the racing industries, I would put the biggest TB thats out there. I would want to take as maney restrictions as posible. A good example is the LS1 engine on the Vettes and F-bodys. They first started with a 75mm then when all the way to a 90mm TB. On my TT Vette I put a 105mm Accufab TB on a sheetmetal intake. See if these were carb trucks then yes bigger could hurt us. Although this is not the case here. If you guys would like me to get more technical just let me know and I will break it down for you all.