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Diesel (long speech)

5.3K views 43 replies 20 participants last post by  chunko  
#1 ·
...another week on my Diesel crusade.

I put together this speech for Toastmasters which was well received:

What’s Driving You?

ATTENTION
What can you do with $500? What is $500 worth to you? What if I told you of a way to put this money in your pocket without even lifting a finger? Sounds too good to be true, doesn’t it?

For me $500 is my vacations accommodation paid. It’s what I reluctantly pay in property taxes on my vehicles each year. It’s the cable bill, etc. Think about it next time you are forking out your hard earned cash on one of these payments.

NEED
How? The answer is simple. Fuel Consumption!

Why consumption? The answer is simple. By using less we demand less and we refine less. It is estimated that in forty years time the world’s reserves will be depleted. If we can use 50% less fuel now we add 20 years to our reserves. Twenty additional years to develop those new technologies! Twenty additional years to spread out the burning of our fossil fuels! We cannot under estimate the importance of those additional 20 years!

This is not something unreasonable because if we consumed fuel at the same rate as the Europeans we would not be in the situation we find ourselves in now. The standard for poor performance as measured by the Europeans is 30 miles per gallon. Anything less is unacceptable. 35 miles per gallon is the norm and anything above 40 the goal. Compare this to the 20 miles per gallon that is acceptable in the US.

To many the way to achieve this is in hydrogen, or methane powered vehicles. Recently we heard about the hydrogen economy and the methanol economy but these technologies are many years away. All are very expensive to develop.

SATISFACTION
What can we do now? There are a couple of ways we can conserve energy and here are three that work.
1) Hybrid Vehicles – Use gasoline and electricity
2) Motorcycles – The 1st or 2nd vehicles for many families in the world.
3) Diesel – A readily available, widely distributed, fuel.

All of the above boast a fuel consumption of around 50 miles per gallon but only one is a viable option. Hybrid vehicles are not good for the long haul or towing and motorcycles are restricted by the weather. The only one that can meet our needs now is Diesel! 50% of all new passenger vehicles sold in Europe are diesel so we cannot throw up our arms and say it can’t work here.

No longer are they dirty, noisy, smelly, vehicles. No longer are they unreliable rattle-traps. No longer are they uninspiring, agricultural, machines. Change is already here in the form of the Volkswagen turbo-diesel, the Mercedes-Benz E320, and the Jeep Liberty CDi. When Daimler-Benz purchased Chrysler they were keen to get the great product line out to the Europeans. The Mini-Van, Jeep Cherokee, and PT Cruiser are highly prized and admired as icons of America. Imagine their shock when they could not sell them because they all averaged 20 miles per gallon. The only thing they bought was the notion that we are a nation of gas-guzzlers!

Daimler-Chrysler’s answer was to put the world-renowned Mercedes-Benz common-rail turbo-diesel engine in these vehicles and success was theirs for the taking. So successful has it been that Chrysler has taken the plunge into the American market. Their first two vehicles are from Mercedes-Benz and Jeep and if we take to these vehicles, more are to follow. If Chrysler offered the Voyager Mini-Van with a diesel engine, as they do in Europe, I’d be the first to take delivery. Not to mention a Dodge Durango with the CDi I6.

To create an appeal I suggested to them that they get Vin Diesel (the actor) to market their Jeep line here. :haveredfl

VISUALIZATION
If we do not act now expect higher gas prices. Expect global warming to continue. Expect a much tougher future.

Now to the $500. By cutting down our consumption of gasoline by at least 50%, and at 30c a gallon cheaper, we save around $10 per week. However, as Diesel becomes more acceptable and the demand increases we can expect a reduction of up to 100% as more advanced Diesel technology is introduced. This translates into at least $500 additional dollars in your pocket each year!

Ask yourself, what can I do with $500? What is $500 worth to me? Think about it next time you are forking out your hard earned cash on one of your expenses. Ask yourself, what can I do to alleviate the fuel crisis? Ask yourself, am I ready to consider diesel as an alternative? The only answer is, YES, YES, YES!

ACTION
My challenge to you today is:
1) Take a close look at your fuel consumption.
2) Make a concerted effort to make a 50% reduction a soon as possible.
3) Consider real alternatives that you can use NOW!

Consider a Diesel as your next passenger car.

Nissan, consider a Diesel soon for the Titan!
 
#4 ·
Diesels-more like 25% better mpg-still a lot!

Motor Trend(I think it was Motor Trend) recently ran an article that discussed fuel economy.They said that Diesels were 25% more efficient than spark motors of similar capacity.Hybrids,about the same 25% better.They went on to suggest that a Diesel-Hybrid was an option,but expensive.
Right now their suggestion is that smaller Turbo Diesels in passenger cars would be the quickest,cheapest way to save a lot of fuel.The gas hybrids are more expensive than the Diesels(unclear on how much the Prius actually costs Toyota to build,but they suggest it is a lot more than the $20,000 they get for it-dealers are getting up to $30,000 for them-$5000 over MSRP).
No question folks will buy diesel passenger cars.In the early 80's folks in the USA bought every Diesel pass. vehicle that was available;and they paid well over MSRP.Once gas prices went down,demand dropped to nothing.Won't happen this time,we won't see $1/gal gas again.
I think the 25% actually meant that they would use 25% less fuel which means they are actually 33% more efficient.Either way,a lot of gas saved.Our trucks wopuld get 16 mpg city instead of the 12 mpg city they get now.Charlie
 
#5 ·
All valid points. I really like my Cummins, but couldn't justify it in my current situation.

A problem w/the diesel is that the Cummins 24V cost me over $4000 when I bought the truck. That is a lot of fuel to get to the break even point. Granted they should have less maintenance, but that's still a lot of miles. If you are towing something big, that's a different story. You almost NEED it. And then of course resale should also be more, so you don't lose the whole $4000.

Howzit, I agree with your concern about the global oil reserves. It is a bleak outlook. And we just keep burning more & more. In some ways, the recent gas hikes may help everyone finally consider a more efficient vehicle. I'm in that boat right now. Trying to decide whether or not I want to take delivery on my Titan. Do I enjoy owning a truck? Yes. Do I NEED a truck? Not really. I like it for hunting & just moving stuff, but I could probably live w/o it if I had to. My 4Runner is fine for 95% of what I do & gets 20 mpg. Should I get a diesel wagon like a Passat & get 30+ mpg? I was up in Quebec in April & I couldn't believe all the cars and lack of pickups. As much as it snows up there, if anyone needs 4WD, it's the Canadians. Apparently their fuel costs have changed behavior enought that they seem to drive more efficient vehicles.

I think there is something strange about Americans that we all need these big vehicles (myself included). People who don't really need trucks, soccer Mom's running around in $50,000+ SUVs. It really is a big obscene, isn't it?

Is diesel the answer, I don't know. Maybe we all just need to take it down a notch??? BTW, anyone know if it costs more or less to refine diesel vs. gas. I would think less, but I don't really know.
 
#6 ·
Current Diesels are getting 25% better fuel economy but the new technology engines (30 000psi) used by VW (50mpg) and Mercedes are close to 50%.

Gasoline egines have reached their maximum air/fuel mix but as compression rates in Diesels get higher expect higher fuel savings!

100% better fuel consumption than gasoline is not a pipe-dream.
 
#8 ·
No hybrid/electric engine? No diesel engine? Well that means no sale for me. Unfortunately it also means I'm going to have to wait at least two more years for a new 1/2 ton. And that new truck is likely to be a 2007 Tundra gas/electric. I have little faith in GM, Ford or Chrysler to produce a quality alternative fuel truck in that time frame and as far as I know, Nissan won't even be trying.

Manufacturers have really dropped the ball on diesel powered vehicles for North American consumption. A good part of the blame however must be shared by the U.S. government who have been extremely lax in enforcing diesel fuel standards (read low-sulfer content) which have been in place in Europe for years.

Crude oil prices reach record highs every week with no end in sight. The first vehicle manufacturer to bring a viable alternative fueled light truck into the marketplace is going to take a lot of market share. It looks like Toyota will be the one.
 
#9 ·
GM will have a Hybrid out in 2006 I think. They are already selling them as fleet trucks now. They have some type of generator/motor between the engine and transmission. Don't think they get a big % better fuel economy though.
 
#12 ·
Diesels-small vehicles-Corolla,Isuzu,Mercedes,small Nissan truck

There were a bunch of diesels options available in the early 80's,and they sold like hotcakes-well over MSRP.
There were diesel-Corolla,small Toyota pickup,Isuzu pickup,and an Isuzu car,Mercedes,I think the small Nissan truck had a diesel also,Peugeot had a diesel car in the USA,Cadillac put diesels in the eldorado(it was a reworked gasoline motor and really gave diesels a bad name-but it sold well initially),Suburbans-the 1/2 ton-also had a half assed diesel available.
Americans bought diesels despite the noise,smell,cost,smoke,pitiful acceleration etc( almost everything was slow in the early 80's,but the Diesels were Hourglass Slow).
The Euros,and the Japanese don't buy Hybrids,they buy diesels-cheaper,simpler and the same mpg-easy choice-they both get 35mpg city,and 50+ hy.CR reports the Prius get 35 city,and Motor Trend backs that up-the 60-51 epa numbers don't reflect actual mpg.
The diesels could be better in all respects now.If I had the $$,I might switch,but it better not sound like any of the Big Three's current noisemaking stinkbombs.I could put up with the decreased performance(yeah,I know they-Cummins,Navstar,Duramax-Isuzu) make good hp numbers,but in stock form the Titan will leave them all for dead).
Well,diesels time is coming again to the USA.Charlie
 
#13 ·
Dirt Rider Dan said:
I have always assumed diesel fuel is more polluting than gasoline. ...
Good point Dirt Rider Dan. Diesels don't use catalytic converters and American diesel is a lot dirtier than European. "Green-Diesel" is becoming more readily avalable and "Soot-Traps" have been developed for the new Diesels.

However, in the US, these standards will only be mandated in 2007. Until then California and New York ban passenger Diesels. Trucks are exempt.
 
#14 ·
You can grow diesel fuel-alcohol too

Howzit,since you are a diesel fan,you must have seen the articles on the guy using discarded grease-oil from Burger King or where ever to power his diesel.This wouldn't be practical on a large scale,but diesel fuel certainly can be "grown"corn oil-soybean oil etc.It is a lot more expensive than petro diesel now-maybe 3 times as much-but that is just about what the Euros pay for fuel,so it really isn't that expensive(especially considering what it costs us to keep the oil flowing out of the Middle East).It wouldn't have that awful diesel stench either-a big plus.Grown fuel to make alcohol and diesel usable oils is expensive(for us in the USA),but it would be one way to decrease our dependence on petro. oil-and to stop the production of CO2(you just recycle it instead of digging it up and releasing it to the atmosphere..
Any Hydrogen tech is a way down the road.There is a fair chance the reduced hydrogen will come from Biomass.Fuel cell tech is a way off,and you still have to get the H2 from somewhere-grow it or get it from coal.
Our piston motors can run on alcohol(ethanol or methanol) with just minor redesign(a lot of race cars do just that).I don't mean the actual motor we have in our trucks(you could make it run on alcohol,but it would be expensive-cheaper to just start with a freshly designed alcohol motor),but a redesigned alcohol version of our motor.
Diesels have a big future here.Charlie
 
#15 ·
Charlie. Yeah, I have read about the Diesel that ran on used fastfood oil. It smelled like fries.

As to small Diesel trucks and cars. It's the norm in countries where gasoline prices are sky-high and Diesel is much cheaper. I drove the BMW 325TDi and it was lightning fast, did not stink, and was 50% more economical than the standard 325i.

Diesels are the future!

Cheers,
Neal
 
#16 ·
And who picks up the cost of the higher diesel motor? You said it brother - us. Diesel motors are way to expensive. And everything I am hearing about this 305 Endurance is telling me that it is gonna last 200K plus.

The only answer is a factor built engine which operates from vegetable oil. Then we can all burn our engines on the same fuel that is giving us heartburn.
 
#17 ·
TitanTough1 said:
And who picks up the cost of the higher diesel motor? You said it brother - us. ...
The US operates on the premise "what the consumer is willing to pay". The VW Diesel is no more expensive than it's gasoline counterpart yet we are willing to make Duramax, Interrnational, and Cummings, rich by buying into the H/D mentality. "It H/D, so we have to pay more".

Repeat after me, "The VW Diesel is no more expensive than it's gasoline counterpart".

Then ask yourself why would you pay more for a diesel truck?
 
#18 ·
Howzit said:
I heard they were looking for an engine supplier (Like International for Ford, Cummings for Dodge, and Isuzu for GM). I suggested they contact BMW and get their amazing 4.0L V8 TDi.

They have said one is on the way but cannot say when.
Nissan owns Nissan Diesel Motor, Co. They put these engines into their UD line of trucks. These trucks are then sold through Nissan Diesel, America.

I'd like to see a Nissan Duelly with a 475 lb-ft diesel engine :)
 
#20 ·
Diesels

rvandam said:
Many of Nissan's models in Europe are sold as diesels, and have been for years. Nissan doesn't need yesterday's technology from International of Cummings.
Cummings diesels in Dodge units are Common rail injection just like all the
European Diesels except for VW who uses very high tech injectors instead
of common rail. Nothing wrong with the technology in a Cummings. I am
not familiar with the latest Ford Diesel but judging from its quieter nature
compared to the older ones I would guess it is common rail also.

Let's be fair here. Nothing wrong with a Cummings 24Valve common rail
injection diesel. It is a very high tech motor.

Zardoz
 
#21 ·
Zardoz said:
Cummings diesels in Dodge units are Common rail injection just like all the
European Diesels except for VW who uses very high tech injectors instead
of common rail. Nothing wrong with the technology in a Cummings. I am
not familiar with the latest Ford Diesel but judging from its quieter nature
compared to the older ones I would guess it is common rail also.

Let's be fair here. Nothing wrong with a Cummings 24Valve common rail
injection diesel. It is a very high tech motor.

Zardoz
I'm sure your data is correct. But common rail or not, the US diesels are ear-splittingly loud on old and new models. Takes me back 10 years to the old mercedes diesels.
 
#22 ·
Diesel noise

rvandam said:
I'm sure your data is correct. But common rail or not, the US diesels are ear-splittingly loud on old and new models. Takes me back 10 years to the old mercedes diesels.
If you are comparing the noise from a 2 litre diesel to a 5.9 litre diesel this
is not fair. I assure you a big mercedes or Volvo diesel is just as noisy if
not more so than the latest series 5.9 cummings. I hate diesel clatter and
always have and the new cummings is impressive in terms of noise. When
I was in France last year I had a little Citroen common rail turbo diesel and
yes it was extremely quiet and accelerated very well for a diesel but you
can't tow 10K lbs with it.

Zardoz
 
#23 · (Edited)
Why-what-how-does common rail work to quiet the motor?

I'm don't know much about Diesel fuel systems.I have a general idea on how they work(20/1 compression ignites the charge),and why they are more efficient(20/1 compression,no throttle valve blocking intake,can run with much higher than the 15/1 air/fuel spark ignition engines have,can take very high SC-TC boost(10-15 psi) without the diesel equivalent of pinging-gasoline will ping unless compression dropped 8/1 or less,and much over 7 psi boost even with intercooler,and they take premium fuel).So diesels have an inherent efficiency advantage,but they are noisy,stinky,expensive,smokey.
What is common rail,and why is it quieter?Diesel trucks-all the big three- are either noisy,or extremely noisy.Why can't they just use more "muffler"(the TC should help) for exhaust noise and put maybe 40 lbs of sound deadening in the engine bay to absorb the "engine noise"-clatter ?What did they use before common rail?
Thanks,Charlie
 
#24 ·
Diesel

PHOEBISIS said:
I'm don't know much about Diesel fuel systems.I have a general idea on how they work(20/1 compression ignites the charge),and why they are more efficient(20/1 compression,no throttle valve blocking intake,can run with much higher than the 15/1 air/fuel spark ignition engines have,can take very high SC-TC boost(10-15 psi) without the diesel equivalent of pinging-gasoline will ping unless compression dropped 8/1 or less,and much over 7 psi boost even with intercooler,and they take premium fuel).So diesels have an inherent efficiency advantage,but they are noisy,stinky,expensive,smokey.
What is common rail,and why is it quieter?Diesel trucks-all the big three- are either noisy,or extremely noisy.Why can't they just use more "muffler"(the TC should help) for exhaust noise and put maybe 40 lbs of sound deadening in the engine bay to absorb the "engine noise"-clatter ?What did they use before common rail?
Thanks,Charlie
Common rail injection is a very precise system for dispensing fuel under extreme pressure. In the old days diesels tended to have a pre-chamber
in the heads that the fuel was injected into and than the flame traveled in
the combustion area. Modern injection systems fire directly into the combustion chamber and also have multiple firings of fuel. This increases the
efficiency and lowers the noise. Modern diesel pistons and coatings also
decrease the noise. Electronically controlled timing and injection help also.

In the old days diesels had a mechanical injector pump that controlled timing
and the amount of fuel injected. Very crude very noisy but very reliable. You
can even run these old diesels without a battery once started.

They do have alot of sound insulation on these motors. They also use computers to design into all parts low vibration which adds to the quiet nature
of these new diesels. If we had low sulfur fuel like Europe our diesels would
be much cleaner also. Diesels tend to be cleaner in some ways but dirtier
in others. People tend to think diesels are very dirty because of the smoke
coming out the tailpipe. You just can't see all the pollution out of a gas motor.
Diesels have their place due to the efficiency issue and high torque output
which makes them perfect for big fat trucks like the Dodge.

Zardoz