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Discussion Starter #1
Been a while. I've been on a new FB group for the Grand Design Imagine travel trailer I got in 2018. I've learned a lot about towing and can't seem to understand why so many MEN have a disconnect when it comes to understanding all the numbers that are directly related to towing SAFELY and WITHIN the LIMITS of your vehicle.
My 2018 Pro4X has a Max towing capacity of 9240lbs, 920lb tongue weight, In my manual it states my exact model Pro4X KC 4x4 has a 1620lb payload capacity. BUT my door jam payload sticker has the payload capacity only at 1322lb. When we went shopping for our new TT the only we were really concerned about was our max tow of 9240lb figuring if we looked at TT's that had a UVW of @6000lbs there's no way we would have a issue with any of the other numbers.
Well we got a 2019 2500RL with a UVW around 5900lb and a supposed hitch weight of 600lbs. We went on one trip locally and then on a 2000mi round trip down to Florida to watch the Sebring 12hr race. The Titan towed flawlessly, great power, no sway that caused any concern, when the truck hooked to the trailer with the WDH there is no squat to speak of and there's no suspension mods.
Well before we went on our next trip to Watkins Glen NY for the next IMSA race we were leaving ahead of schedule so I decided to go to the CAT scales at the local truck stop just for shits and grins and find out how below our numbers we were.
Imagine my surprise, mind you it's just the wife and I #450lbs with 200lb generator, ez-up, Coleman Roadtrip grill, rug, rubber matts, plastic table, 5gal gas can full, some shoring wood and ramps. We were 500lbs over GVWR, which basically translates to your payload and weight of truck empty. And the RAWR rear axle weight rating was 300lbs over.
Our camper weighted 6300lbs on the scale and the real world tongue is more likely about 800lbs and that's w/o any fresh water in the fresh water tank. Be safe out there and tow below your numbers (all your numbers) Happy trails and camping.
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Think you're overloaded? Just about ANY 3/4 ton pickup truck with a diesel engine, pulling a fifth wheel trailer, is over their cargo capacity.

What's listed in the truck brochures - and possibly in the manuals - is the cargo capacity of a base level model. That is very misleading for folks that don't understand the game the vehicle manufacturers are playing. The weights listed for trailers should be ignored, except for the GVWR. The dry weights listed are a joke. Nobody goes camping at that weight.
 

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All the crap in your truck starts to add up. My truck sits right at 6k pounds without me in it (weighed recently). It used to be 6k with me in it before I got my latest set of tires, but they're heavier. That means in the truck I have several hundred pounds of stuff.
 

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A lot of guys have learned to move stuff to the trailer to offload the truck. For maximum effect, this means locating stuff aft of the trailer's axles. However, this can lighten the tongue weight too much, making the trailer more likely to sway.
 

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@slyfur1 you probably just need some adjustment to your WDH to get things in order.

First off, yes, your tongue weight is probably much heavier than you estimated. Looks like you were estimating 10%. Most TT's run closer to 15% loaded.

Second, your steer axle is very light. Mine runs 3340 without the WDH engaged, 3520 with WDH. Your 3220 indicates that the tongue weight is pulling way too much off the front axle. More tension on the WDH will take care of that. I run a smaller trailer (overall GCVW of 11,900), but even then have to pay attention to weight distribution. My light weight WDH easily pulls 400# off the drive axle, I'm sure you can get your numbers in line easily. Your first pass over the CATS just shows that you have a bit of work to do. Adjust your WDH and your loading and you will probably be fine.
 

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Getting the truck weight without the trailer attached is helpful also.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I've done all this. I got the truck weighted empty it's around 5900lb w/o me in the truck. And when I put all the stuff in the truck bed in the TT around the axles or behind it. It made the truck only 100lbs over GVWR and the RAWR is was now 200lbs under but like HR TKD said it became a little more sway happy. It's all fine guys. I'm not looking for answers. I'm trying to help people become aware that you can't just go to a Camper dealer and get a travel trailer that weight's w/n 1000lbs of as much as your total tow capacity is and expect that you are going to be within all your towing capacity numbers. You are going to hit your GVWR way before you pull a trailer that weights 9200lbs. There's a crap ton of Tundra owners on there that are pulling TT's they have no business towing.
 

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It isn't clear if the guys at the trailer dealer have no idea what they're talking about or if they'll sell you anything to make a sale.

I bought an F-350 so that I had a very large amount of extra cargo capacity and didn't have to run the numbers. I have run my truck/trailer through the CAT scale however, just to make sure.
 

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I've done all this. I got the truck weighted empty it's around 5900lb w/o me in the truck. And when I put all the stuff in the truck bed in the TT around the axles or behind it. It made the truck only 100lbs over GVWR and the RAWR is was now 200lbs under but like HR TKD said it became a little more sway happy. It's all fine guys. I'm not looking for answers. I'm trying to help people become aware that you can't just go to a Camper dealer and get a travel trailer that weight's w/n 1000lbs of as much as your total tow capacity is and expect that you are going to be within all your towing capacity numbers. You are going to hit your GVWR way before you pull a trailer that weights 9200lbs. There's a crap ton of Tundra owners on there that are pulling TT's they have no business towing.
Well sure, no pickup can generally pull an RV type trailer at or near the rated tow capacity. That's because mfg. tow capacity is for all types of trailers. You can tow at the limit with a well balanced flatbed trailer with around 10% tongue weight if the load is flat and dense and low to the load deck. A giant box trailer has a much higher COG, a huge wind resistance, and generally much heavier tongue weight. And no, there are VERY few RV sales people out there who understand this.

Most trucks can tow above the limits as well, just not as safely. The standardized tests that manufacturers use to set the tow limits require the combo to perform a set of maneuvers within a series of limits. So if you are over limit, you may not be able to stop within a prescribed distance, or hold in place on a steep grade, or understeer appropriately on a curve at a set speed. I am not advocating for people towing more than the rating, just saying that it is possible but pushing the truck outside of it's limits. My current trailer is about 60% of max weight and I'm happy with that.

If you want a really good understanding of how this works, TFLTruck and Engineering Explained collaborated on a pair of YouTube videos explaining how the ratings are determined and what the exact tests are. Look them up, they are very informative.
and
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well sure, no pickup can generally pull an RV type trailer at or near the rated tow capacity. That's because mfg. tow capacity is for all types of trailers. You can tow at the limit with a well balanced flatbed trailer with around 10% tongue weight if the load is flat and dense and low to the load deck. A giant box trailer has a much higher COG, a huge wind resistance, and generally much heavier tongue weight. And no, there are VERY few RV sales people out there who understand this.

Most trucks can tow above the limits as well, just not as safely. The standardized tests that manufacturers use to set the tow limits require the combo to perform a set of maneuvers within a series of limits. So if you are over limit, you may not be able to stop within a prescribed distance, or hold in place on a steep grade, or understeer appropriately on a curve at a set speed. I am not advocating for people towing more than the rating, just saying that it is possible but pushing the truck outside of it's limits. My current trailer is about 60% of max weight and I'm happy with that.

If you want a really good understanding of how this works, TFLTruck and Engineering Explained collaborated on a pair of YouTube videos explaining how the ratings are determined and what the exact tests are. Look them up, they are very informative.
and
You really have a good understanding of this, I wish 99% of the rest of towing RV community understood as well, our roads would be much safer. The J2807 test is very interesting.
 
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