[Bama334]

Many times on here when a dealer denies a claim we hear of the Magnusson Moss Act of 1975 designed to protect the consumer. Has anyone ever had any results using MMA? I finally read thru it, seems it is so full of loop holes just like many other laws it appears to be almost useless. It appears that a little common sense from a dealer with some good photos and documentation and it's all over for the most part. What I did out of it was that a dealer cannot specify a particular part or specify if you do not use a dealer for preventive maintenance it will void the warranty. Am I understanding this right or did I miss the point of the MMA? Anyone had to use it? I'm almost ready to install my lift and 315's, so with the number of front end problems popping up thought I might need to read up on things.

Thanks in Advance :dunno:

 

[The Pawnbroker]

You are on the right track. It was intended to protect the non-oem parts suppliers. That way, you can use your aftermarket oil, filters etc and do your own maintenance without jeopardizing your warranty. As long as they meet some basic standard and you keep records of doing the required maintenance. There are no standards set for lifts, chips, etc. It is very easy on the other hand to deny warranty work. All they have to do is say "no". I have never known anyone who was successful in using the MM act to get warranty work done when any kind of modifications had been made. Keep in mind that all the dealer has to do is deny the coverage and then it is up to you and your lawyer$$ to sue in order to get coverage. Can you imagine how easy it is for an engineer to show in court that an aftermarket modification caused the engine, trans, suspension, brakes etc, etc, to sustain stresses that are "outside the design parameters"? Of course it is, that's why they are called "modifications". Unlike what a lot of people think, they don't at all have to "prove" that the modification caused the problem. They just simply say so and let you sue to prove otherwise. The old saying is true, if you are going to mod, than you are going to have to take the responsibly of being your own "warranty station". On the other hand, a lot of dealers and manufacturers are know to allow lifts etc because they know it sells trucks. When I was modding my diesel, I was told by one dealer that by adding a fueling box I would void my warranty. On the other hand, the dealer across town was installing them and allowing warranty work no questions asked! So you have to decide for yourself whether it is worth the possible risk.

 

[Vector]

Suburban Nissan of Troy Michigan tried to blame a backfire situation on my K&N cold air intake and my Banks Monster exhaust. They did this after I told them that the catylitic converter may have failed and that it was a common item. They had my truck for 4 days trying various things to cure the problem. They had the balls to tell me that swapping my K&N out for a factory intake helped but did not cure the problem an that I needed to put the factory exhaust back on to make it right. They then presented me with a $400.00 bill for their troubles. I pulled out MMA and said bring in the Nissan representatives and have them provide data showing that this issues will occour with the K&N and Banks. They did not want to get Nissan involved at that level and after 2 hours of debate let me take my truck without paying. I then found a Nissan Dealer that built NO FEAR Titans and they took the truck in and 30 minutes later called me and told me "your catylit converter is bad on the right bank, we have ordered the replacement part and your truck sould be ready in 3 days".

Nice to deal with a dealer that knows what they are doing.

 

[cneary812]

My belief is to leave the vehicle stock or just add bolt ons like exhaust intake etc that will not question the warrenty integrity, then when the warrenty is over go all out and do what you really want to do.

It looks like your 04 should be out of its 3yr/36k bumper to bumper anyway so I'd say go for it if thats what you want. Then if you have a powertrain problem that is still covered, bring it in and be cordual to the service manager and they will most likely not give you a hard time, if they do go to another dealer that will honor it.

 

[daptech]

The M-M Act is often mentioned at automotive forums. The
SEMA "interpretation" of the M-M Act is repeated over &
over again. I'm also aware of another point of view....that
the M-M Act does not apply to parts that "modify" a vehicle,
only replacement parts designed to perform in the same
manner as OEM. Some dealers may respond to mention
of the M-M Act, but I'm more interested in knowing what is the
true benefit of the M-M Act to the owner if the
dealer/manufacturer doesn't back down.
I have spent a considerable amount of time searching
the NET for a court case where the M-M Act was applied
to performance parts & could not find any.
All I could find were several cases where the M-M Act
was applied to other type of warranty issues.
If anyone has documents from a court case where
the M-M Act was applied to perfrormance parts or
parts that modify a vehicle, i sure would like to see
it.
-
Here is one of the court cases that I mentioned in
which the M-M Act was used.It is
not about performance parts, but gives an indication
of what it is like if the manufacturer wants to play
hardball.
http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2001/1stDistrict/February/Html/1994079.htm

 

[decypher44]

Suburban Nissan of Troy Michigan tried to blame a backfire situation on my K&N cold air intake and my Banks Monster exhaust. They did this after I told them that the catylitic converter may have failed and that it was a common item. They had my truck for 4 days trying various things to cure the problem. They had the balls to tell me that swapping my K&N out for a factory intake helped but did not cure the problem an that I needed to put the factory exhaust back on to make it right. They then presented me with a $400.00 bill for their troubles. I pulled out MMA and said bring in the Nissan representatives and have them provide data showing that this issues will occour with the K&N and Banks. They did not want to get Nissan involved at that level and after 2 hours of debate let me take my truck without paying. I then found a Nissan Dealer that built NO FEAR Titans and they took the truck in and 30 minutes later called me and told me "your catylit converter is bad on the right bank, we have ordered the replacement part and your truck sould be ready in 3 days".



Nice to deal with a dealer that knows what they are doing.

Please tell me you contacted the first dealership and told them how the other took care of you and how wrong they were.

 

[Bama334]

The M-M Act is often mentioned at automotive forums. The
SEMA "interpretation" of the M-M Act is repeated over &
over again. I'm also aware of another point of view....that
the M-M Act does not apply to parts that "modify" a vehicle,
only replacement parts designed to perform in the same
manner as OEM. Some dealers may respond to mention
of the M-M Act, but I'm more interested in knowing what is the
true benefit of the M-M Act to the owner if the
dealer/manufacturer doesn't back down.
I have spent a considerable amount of time searching
the NET for a court case where the M-M Act was applied
to performance parts & could not find any.
All I could find were several cases where the M-M Act
was applied to other type of warranty issues.
If anyone has documents from a court case where
the M-M Act was applied to perfrormance parts or
parts that modify a vehicle, i sure would like to see
it.
-
Here is one of the court cases that I mentioned in
which the M-M Act was used.It is
not about performance parts, but gives an indication
of what it is like if the manufacturer wants to play
hardball.
http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2001/1stDistrict/February/Html/1994079.htm

I agree with you totally on your interpetation on the modification and aftermarket part . I really don't think MMA scares any dealers or Nissan. GM also produced the 5.3 with a start up knock from 99 thru 2002 and got away with it. I had one.

 

[daptech]

........................ GM also produced the 5.3 with a start up knock from 99 thru 2002 and got away with it. I had one.

I remember that. If you did a search for "piston slap" you
got a lot of sites about Chevy & lawyers.

 

[HAWAIITITAN808]

I am implementing another part of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which basically says:
"So if the consumer is told that only the original brand of part/product will not void the warranty, he should request that the OE part/product be supplied free of charge. If he is charged for the part/product, the manufacturer will be violating the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act or other applicable law."

I asked Frank at King Windward Nissan service department in Hawaii: If only the Nissan Brand(OEM) engine oil and air filters could be used as to not void the my warranty? Frank said Yes! Then I told him acording to the Magnuson Moss Warranty act, if the dealer or manufacturer says that only the OEM product will not void the warranty, then it should be provided FREE of charge.

Needless to say Frank had no clue what the MMA was and reffered me to Nissan North America, where I had them open a case file for me with details about my issues. Nissan North America is aware of the act however told me that my case was the first and was proven valid.

Nissan North America had made arrangements with my local dealer to provide, all OEM parts/products(engine oil filter, airfilter etc.) required by Nissan for my scheduled maintenance. I have an 2008 Nissan Titan and I am doing all the scheduled maintenace work myself.
-Thanks

 

[HudsonValleyTitan]

I am implementing another part of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which basically says:
"So if the consumer is told that only the original brand of part/product will not void the warranty, he should request that the OE part/product be supplied free of charge. If he is charged for the part/product, the manufacturer will be violating the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act or other applicable law."

I asked Frank at King Windward Nissan service department in Hawaii: If only the Nissan Brand(OEM) engine oil and air filters could be used as to not void the my warranty? Frank said Yes! Then I told him acording to the Magnuson Moss Warranty act, if the dealer or manufacturer says that only the OEM product will not void the warranty, then it should be provided FREE of charge.

Needless to say Frank had no clue what the MMA was and reffered me to Nissan North America, where I had them open a case file for me with details about my issues. Nissan North America is aware of the act however told me that my case was the first and was proven valid.

Nissan North America had made arrangements with my local dealer to provide, all OEM parts/products(engine oil filter, airfilter etc.) required by Nissan for my scheduled maintenance. I have an 2008 Nissan Titan and I am doing all the scheduled maintenace work myself.
-Thanks

I think the difference here is that the parts in question were not just a different brand, but different altogether. A HI-FLO intake changes air flow amount, airflow temperature etc. So although most dealers will let it go, they don't have to. Same with the exhaust...all sensors and the ECU are mapped to handle parameters that are now changed...allowing more airflow. This is why MAF sensor and O2 sensor warrantys are being denied more and more to those with intakes and/or catbacks. All dealers are different, and I think his dealer backed down not because of that useless MMA, but didn't want Nissan USA to hear about any complaints period.
If you raise your truckl and the suspension or drivetrain fails, your SOL unless you have a great dealer or reverse the mods before bringing it in.

 

[lizardking]

If that where true the Nismo stuff would void warranties being the sensors are not designed for the intake.

 

[lizardking]

I would google for a lawsuit concerning an aftermarket intake or exhaust where a dealer denied. I've never seen one....but never looked. This would answer the question if you found one.

 

[daptech]

Almost no dealers would complain about a cat-back exhaust & most
dealers probably wouldn't complain about a CAI, although they
don't like the oiled filters.
But, some people put too much faith in the M-M Act. The M-M Act
does not stand alone, but works in conjunction with the warranty.
Wording in the warranty affects the M-M Act.
Nissan is well aware of the M-M Act & you can bet your butt Nissan
lawyers had input into the wording in the owner's manual &
warranty booklet.
-
From owner’s manual:
MODIFICATION OF YOUR VEHICLE
This vehicle should not be modified. Modification
could affect its performance,
safety or durability, and may even violate
governmental regulations. In addition,
damage or performance problems resulting
from modifications may not be covered
under NISSAN warranties.

From the warranty What’s Not Covered
Damage caused by:

Alteration, tampering or improper repair.
-
"modification" & "alteration" are important words.
Does the M-M Act apply to modifications & alterations?
Those statements are there for a reason, not by accident.
-
Most dealers will work with the owner to maintain good
customer relations, but some will not.
If I modify my truck, I'm willing to accept the fact that
I MAY have warranty issues..........pay to play.

 

[HAWAIITITAN808]

I think the difference here is that the parts in question were not just a different brand, but different altogether. A HI-FLO intake changes air flow amount, airflow temperature etc. So although most dealers will let it go, they don't have to. Same with the exhaust...all sensors and the ECU are mapped to handle parameters that are now changed...allowing more airflow. This is why MAF sensor and O2 sensor warrantys are being denied more and more to those with intakes and/or catbacks. All dealers are different, and I think his dealer backed down not because of that useless MMA, but didn't want Nissan USA to hear about any complaints period.
If you raise your truckl and the suspension or drivetrain fails, your SOL unless you have a great dealer or reverse the mods before bringing it in.

Tytain asked if anyone has had results using MMA , and I was merely answering the question by sharing my experience and results using MMA. I wasnt talking about modifications or anything, just results. Thanks.

 

[The Pawnbroker]

Hawaii,

You have used it exactly as it was intended. It was intended to allow owners to do their own maintenance. As I think I said above, if they tell you that only their parts will keep your warranty valid, then they have to supply the parts free of charge. Are you saying that because someone in a Nissan dealership (who obviously didn't know what he was talking about) gave you incorrect information that Nissan is now giving you free filters etc.?? Why didn't they just correct the info and tell you that you can in fact use aftermarket filters and oil and not void your warranty?

 

[HudsonValleyTitan]

If that where true the Nismo stuff would void warranties being the sensors are not designed for the intake.

Actually, it is the case and, in some instances, I bet even non dealer installed NISMO parts can void a warranty. Having said that, most dealers won't balk at an intake or exhaust as mentioned before. They will, however, catch over oiled filters that damage MAF sensors or extreme changes such as suspension lifts. The MMA doesn't give the owner the right to flat out bastardize a vehicle and expect not to void any warrantys. In that case it helps protect the manufacturer. But the manufacturer cannot make you use their brand of replacement/maintainence parts either.

 

[daptech]

............................ But the manufacturer cannot make you use their brand of replacement/maintainence parts either.

It seems to me that there is a provision in the M-M Act does allow the
manufacturer to require specific maintenance parts.
-
Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not
permissible, you can include this kind of provision in your
warranty if you can effectively show the FTC that your
product will not work properly without a specific item
or service. If you believe that this is the case for your
product, you should contact the warranty staff of the
FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on
how you should apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.
-
For example........did Nissan provide proof to the FTC showing that
it's vehicles require Matic-J to perform properly. It would
be interesting to know if Nissan has a waiver from the FTC.

 

[HudsonValleyTitan]

It seems to me that there is a provision in the M-M Act does allow the
manufacturer to require specific maintenance parts.
-
Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not
permissible, you can include this kind of provision in your
warranty if you can effectively show the FTC that your
product will not work properly without a specific item
or service. If you believe that this is the case for your
product, you should contact the warranty staff of the
FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on
how you should apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.
-
For example........did Nissan provide proof to the FTC showing that
it's vehicles require Matic-J to perform properly. It would
be interesting to know if Nissan has a waiver from the FTC.

Good point. I forgot about the Matic-J fluid. And I believe you do HAVE TO use that particular tranny fluid. I'm not sure if it voids the warranty or not though.
I guess that the fact being nobody here knows for sure means none of us have had to use the MMA. This is a good thing.

 

[lizardking]

It sounds like nothing more then pure speculation with ones interperation of the act. I suggest you search on Google for any lawsuit. I'm sure someone by now has sued someone using this very act. Don't over think it! I believe K&N has documents stating it will not void your warranty. I'm sure their lawyers had some insight. Like I said, I'm sure someone by now has sued!

 

[daptech]

.............................. I suggest you search on Google for any lawsuit. I'm sure someone by now has sued someone using this very act......................... !

I have found many legal documents in which the M-M Act was
used in warranty cases. Most are lemon law cases, fraud in
the financial agreement & general type warranty disputes.
Here is another typical case in which the M-M Act played a part.
http://www.state.il.us/court/opinions/appellatecourt/2007/1stdistrict/march/1051951.pdf
If someone has legal documents showing how the M-M Act was
applied to parts that modify a vehicle, it would answer a
lot of questions.