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The exhaust out the tailpipe has to be cleaner than the air going in. It's just very difficult to build a diesel engine that way. I think emissions have to be changed or diesel PUs (pickups) will be priced out of existence. They have already increased a lot in price & repair costs. They're very expensive to buy and repair. You will never get your money back in fuel savings. In the past, the Big 3 & their dealers, made good profits, selling diesel PUs & vans. Consumers got a vehicle that would last a long time, could tow a lot and would hold their resale value.

I'm not sure those things are true any more. These draconian emission standards have hurt US jobs and the economy more than they have done for clean air. I don't think the EPA is done either. They will keep passing new requirements, until someone does something to stop them. Back in the 1960s, what the EPA did was necessary. But, now they have gone so far beyond that, it's now ridiculous. A lot of these standards were because some valleys in California, tend to be hazy. Now all the US, suffers from those
standards that have been put in place!
 

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lol. where'd you copy and paste this from.


the technology is still lacking but has really gotten a lot better since 07 or whenever diesels had to follow the new strict guidelines. itll catch up eventually, just like in the 70's and 80's when emissions killed gasoline cars.
 

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The exhaust out the tailpipe has to be cleaner than the air going in. It's just very difficult to build a diesel engine that way. I think emissions have to be changed or diesel PUs (pickups) will be priced out of existence. They have already increased a lot in price & repair costs. They're very expensive to buy and repair. You will never get your money back in fuel savings. In the past, the Big 3 & their dealers, made good profits, selling diesel PUs & vans. Consumers got a vehicle that would last a long time, could tow a lot and would hold their resale value.

I'm not sure those things are true any more. These draconian emission standards have hurt US jobs and the economy more than they have done for clean air. I don't think the EPA is done either. They will keep passing new requirements, until someone does something to stop them. Back in the 1960s, what the EPA did was necessary. But, now they have gone so far beyond that, it's now ridiculous. A lot of these standards were because some valleys in California, tend to be hazy. Now all the US, suffers from those
standards that have been put in place!
 

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Wow, great first post. I think this has to be nominated for the Hall of Fame.
 

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The exhaust out the tailpipe has to be cleaner than the air going in. It's just very difficult to build a diesel engine that way. I think emissions have to be changed or diesel PUs (pickups) will be priced out of existence. They have already increased a lot in price & repair costs. They're very expensive to buy and repair. You will never get your money back in fuel savings. In the past, the Big 3 & their dealers, made good profits, selling diesel PUs & vans. Consumers got a vehicle that would last a long time, could tow a lot and would hold their resale value.

I'm not sure those things are true any more. These draconian emission standards have hurt US jobs and the economy more than they have done for clean air. I don't think the EPA is done either. They will keep passing new requirements, until someone does something to stop them. Back in the 1960s, what the EPA did was necessary. But, now they have gone so far beyond that, it's now ridiculous. A lot of these standards were because some valleys in California, tend to be hazy. Now all the US, suffers from those
standards that have been put in place!
....thank our great government beauracy
 

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Discussion Starter #6
lol. where'd you copy and paste this from. the technology is still lacking but has really gotten a lot better since 07 or whenever diesels had to follow the new strict guidelines. itll catch up eventually, just like in the 70's and 80's when emissions killed gasoline cars.
I may have heard something close to this verbally. But, I used to live in one of those valleys in CA. So, I didn't copy & paste.
 

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It's the same government BS, that has our coal industry under siege also.
 

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The layers of b.s. in the epa has gotten so far out of hand. Yes we all need clean water and clean air, but stop ruining industries. EPA has got to be full of employees that got made fun of in high school or college. Hall monitors and tattle tales.

Of course when coal rollers get dpf deletes done it kinda takes away from the "diesel is more fuel efficient" argument. This government has become so overbearing that large business have started developing "fail safes".. Since when have 30k vehicles become disposable? Dodge and GM should not have been bailed out!! And before someone thinks I'm supporting Trump.. I ain't he's an a$$..

Done with rant.
 

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well I hafta admit, I'm not looking forward to spending $ on DEF. Much less keeping track of what level it's at.
if the epa wants to make things cleaner I'm all for it. but 20 bucks for a jug of distilled water and Urea is robbery.
what's more, it should be available at the diesel pumps. Does anyone happen to know if the DEF tank is heated in the Titan?

Zurc.
 

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I don't think he DEF thing will last. They're bound to come up with something "better".
 

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well I hafta admit, I'm not looking forward to spending $ on DEF. Much less keeping track of what level it's at.
if the epa wants to make things cleaner I'm all for it. but 20 bucks for a jug of distilled water and Urea is robbery.
what's more, it should be available at the diesel pumps. Does anyone happen to know if the DEF tank is heated in the Titan?

Zurc.
DEF is available at the pumps in nearly every truck stop and in many gas stations.
The cost of DEF is negligible,especially when you figure in the Approximate 5% increase in fuel economy.
You also have zero diesel smell, no smoke and your tail pipe stays as clean as the day you bought it.
The
DEF tank in the Titan should be heated, or people that drive in 12 degree or less weather will be stopped in their tracks.
Keeping track of DEF level is actually easier than keeping track of how much fuel you have in your tank.
All the pickups I have seen have some sort of DEF gauge, plus you will get repeated warnings when the level gets low, which is a very good thing, as the truck will shut down when you run out of DEF.
I get between 5-12000 miles per 5 gallon tank in my Ford.
When I weigh 18,000+lbs, I use 1 gallon per 1000 miles at the worst. Empty, I vary between 2-3000 miles per gallon.Mileage varies with load, RPM, flat vrs. steep ground etc.
 

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I hadn't heard about the 5% increase in fuel economy.
Assuming 15L/100Km that's about .75L savings per 100km or about 4.5L/600km ( roughly 1 tank of fuel in the titan). Probably better. I'm just using rough numbers.
So given your worst case number of 1000miles per gallon of DEF, that's a savings of about 12L of fuel.
10L of DEF costs about $20.00 so it costs $10.00 per 1000 miles. Fuel here costs about $0.85/L presently. That's $10.20 Savings over the 12L of fuel. Of course, that changes as the cost of fuel goes up and it changes again under lighter loads. So overall I guess its not so bad.

I'm still mystified as to how Nissan keeps the DEF from Freezing while the truck is sitting in the driveway in Freezing temperatures.
Something I'm missing here I guess.

And another interesting issue is, what happens if your the unlucky fellow who has run out of DEF for whatever reason in the middle of no-where's-ville?
What's the workaround for that problem? Maybe just put plain water in and hope nothing bungs up? Assuming you have any.

I checked around at various outlets but I didn't do any looking at the local Diesel stops. That's something I'll make a point of doing out of curiosity.

Zurc.


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Only good thing i see with the increase in emissions regulations is that manufacturers are required to create new technology and think outside of the box. Which also (like in cases with the new diesels), can create unbelievable amounts of power!

Other than that... Its completely useless.
 

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I hadn't heard about the 5% increase in fuel economy.
Assuming 15L/100Km that's about .75L savings per 100km or about 4.5L/600km ( roughly 1 tank of fuel in the titan). Probably better. I'm just using rough numbers.
So given your worst case number of 1000miles per gallon of DEF, that's a savings of about 12L of fuel.
10L of DEF costs about $20.00 so it costs $10.00 per 1000 miles. Fuel here costs about $0.85/L presently. That's $10.20 Savings over the 12L of fuel. Of course, that changes as the cost of fuel goes up and it changes again under lighter loads. So overall I guess its not so bad.

I'm still mystified as to how Nissan keeps the DEF from Freezing while the truck is sitting in the driveway in Freezing temperatures.
Something I'm missing here I guess.

And another interesting issue is, what happens if your the unlucky fellow who has run out of DEF for whatever reason in the middle of no-where's-ville?
What's the workaround for that problem? Maybe just put plain water in and hope nothing bungs up? Assuming you have any.

I checked around at various outlets but I didn't do any looking at the local Diesel stops. That's something I'll make a point of doing out of curiosity.

Zurc.


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What ever you do, never put water or anything else in your DEF tank.
DEF will freeze in colder than 12 degrees, but the heater will quickly thaw it out.
My manual says" If DEF freezes when the vehicle is shut down, start up and normal operation of the vehicle will not be inhibited. The DEF will be quickly thawed by the SCR heating system in order to return it to liquid form and resume normal operation.
DEF has been used in Europe for a lot longer than here, and they haven't had any problems regarding freezing.
Luck has nothing to do with running out of DEF or fuel. Pay attention to the messages and the gauge. My Ford starts to nag me when I am down to 1 gallon.
On long trips, like the one I took to Alaska last Summer, I just put a 2.5 gallon jug on the back floor.I added the 2.5 gallon to the tank on the way back.
One of the problems with the non DEF trucks with a particulate filter, was that it took more fuel to regen and if regen didn't complete before you shut down, the unburned fuel would go into the oil. That rarely happens now. Pre DEF trucks usually dumped fuel into 4 cylinder to regen, now they only dump fuel into 2 cylinders and less of it.
DEF trucks regen less, as long as as you are not making a lot of 10 mile or less trips.Also, pre DEF trucks lost a lot of power when in regen, with DEF trucks you will not notice a power drop, just a couple of mile a gallon decrease while in regen, which is a lot less than a pre DEF truck while in regen mode.
 

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Well a little research is quite revealing.
Cummings is picky about how clean and pure the DEF needs to be primarily because of the freezing point.
And 12deg F or -11C is around about where the DEF starts freezing.
It has an interesting property of the urea freezing and melting at the same rate as the water thus keeping the solution equal during the melting/freezing process.
It also has a 7% expansion rate.
So the tank and lines have to be heated and Cummings indicates that Frozen DEF won't stop starting and normal operation.
I'd guess that it's primarily concerned with quantity in the tank and may not even monitor the flow rate or give a hoot about DEF temperature..

It still bugs me that there's no limp mode though.
I'm a firm believer in murphys law which says that what can go wrong will go wrong.

For instance, the Hall effect sensor that the international diesel engines have that makes a pulse train for timing. If it quits your pooched.
As I was at a stop light one day. Ended up being towed about 5 blocks home. The engine would start for about 15 seconds and quit. Ford put another hall sensor in and then I had another hall senser put in under recall.
It tends to bring the reliability question into the fore. One little piece of semiconductor brings an engine to a dead stop with no work around ( I hate to use "limp mode") to get you to a safe place/home? Good grief.
When they first brought out EEM modules in the late 70's early 80's, at least if they quit, you still had enough power to get you some place better than a bad spot. Seems that concept has taken a back seat.

So for a DEF issue to bring a vehicle to a stop for any reason, it's just nothing more than the clean air huggers trying to ensure that people don't bypass their wonderful emissions regulations. One aircraft can burn 8000lbs of jet fuel in less than an hour and nobody has put any emissions regulations on those things.

Zurc.
 
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