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Discussion Starter #21
I could see buying one. But I hope not to be buying one soon. I just bought a 2019 Ram 4WD Crew Cab Bighorn, and I suspect it might be my last truck purchase :) - not that I'm planning on dying anytime soon, but by the time I get the years & miles on it that I got on the Titan I'll be pretty deep into my 60s and unlikely to be that interested in hauling a lot of crap anymore.
Yeah I've averaged 14.5k a year so I'm sitting at 147k right now. The first 5 years I owned it I was averaging 16-17k, but it's dropped in the last few years since I got a motorcycle and we got a better travel vehicle. That keeps anywhere between 2-4k a year off it. I'm thinking by the time I get to 200-225k there will be a few options out there.

Range/charging time are obviously the biggest issues with EV's right now, but what if they offer a 1000 mile range half ton? What if it only takes an hour to charge that thousand miles? The way Atlis is talking it'll take you 15 minutes to charge 400 miles at one of their stations. "Tomorrow, 5 minutes". Lofty goal, but what if they hit it? 5-15 minutes to charge 400-500 miles, so 30 minutes to charge 1000.
 

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The EV manufacturers are going to have to come together to distribute charging stations. Or, maybe the existing gas stations start to add them. There simply aren't enough of them to allow 100% electric vehicles to travel long distances. The charging time is critical. Nissan dealers have charging stations and are supposed to have at least one fast charge station. However, what I've been told is you don't want to be using that fast charge station too much as it isn't good for the longevity of the battery pack.

A full charge on my Leaf from a 220v station (30 amp I think) takes a good three to four hours. No way I'm waiting that long to charge if I need to get somewhere.
 

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Yeah I've averaged 14.5k a year so I'm sitting at 147k right now. The first 5 years I owned it I was averaging 16-17k, but it's dropped in the last few years since I got a motorcycle and we got a better travel vehicle. That keeps anywhere between 2-4k a year off it. I'm thinking by the time I get to 200-225k there will be a few options out there.



Range/charging time are obviously the biggest issues with EV's right now, but what if they offer a 1000 mile range half ton? What if it only takes an hour to charge that thousand miles? The way Atlis is talking it'll take you 15 minutes to charge 400 miles at one of their stations. "Tomorrow, 5 minutes". Lofty goal, but what if they hit it? 5-15 minutes to charge 400-500 miles, so 30 minutes to charge 1000.


Range seems to be about the same across the board. The only real selling point to me will be looks and charging time. No way they share the charging time that’s a huge selling point. Sadly the government will have to step in.


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Yeah I've averaged 14.5k a year so I'm sitting at 147k right now. The first 5 years I owned it I was averaging 16-17k, but it's dropped in the last few years since I got a motorcycle and we got a better travel vehicle. That keeps anywhere between 2-4k a year off it. I'm thinking by the time I get to 200-225k there will be a few options out there.

Range/charging time are obviously the biggest issues with EV's right now, but what if they offer a 1000 mile range half ton? What if it only takes an hour to charge that thousand miles? The way Atlis is talking it'll take you 15 minutes to charge 400 miles at one of their stations. "Tomorrow, 5 minutes". Lofty goal, but what if they hit it? 5-15 minutes to charge 400-500 miles, so 30 minutes to charge 1000.
1000 mile range would be pretty damn impressive!

My thoughts on electric vehicles: Rather than super-fast charge time, more reasonable (in my opinion) is standardized, easily removed batteries with reasonable charge times (say an hour) that are swapped when you pull in to "get gas". Then you swap out batteries the way you swap out propane tanks for your gas grill.

Once upon a time I worked a lot with batteries and electricity. Super-fast charging is harder on batteries than slow charging. I know the technology has changed since I was an electronics tech with the military (this is 30 years ago), but the basic principles of batteries is still the same. Wait times are going to be a significant hindrance towards long-term adoption of full electric vehicles. I can fill up my Ram (or my Titan, when I had it) from empty in less than 5 minutes. People aren't going to accept 15 or more minutes for recharging time *unless* the stops are reduced significantly, i.e. you have to stop once for 30 minutes but can go 1,000 miles.

I think all of this is kind of a moot point. What I see coming down the pike is subscriptions to car services, where a driverless car picks you up whenever you want to go somewhere and drops you off, and you don't own a car at all but rather an "Amazon Car Prime" where you pay some amount of money and are guaranteed unlimited pick up/drop off service. Or you pay for a specific number of trips, or you pay by the mile, or something similar. Most people pay for a car to sit around and do nothing 23+ hours per day. Since most people consider a car an appliance, they won't care at all who owns the car, as long as it takes them where they want to go. They won't have to park it, maintain it, wash it, insure it, etc. It will be like public transportation, except you won't have to sit next to a bum or wino.
 

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1000 mile range would be pretty damn impressive!



My thoughts on electric vehicles: Rather than super-fast charge time, more reasonable (in my opinion) is standardized, easily removed batteries with reasonable charge times (say an hour) that are swapped when you pull in to "get gas". Then you swap out batteries the way you swap out propane tanks for your gas grill.



Once upon a time I worked a lot with batteries and electricity. Super-fast charging is harder on batteries than slow charging. I know the technology has changed since I was an electronics tech with the military (this is 30 years ago), but the basic principles of batteries is still the same. Wait times are going to be a significant hindrance towards long-term adoption of full electric vehicles. I can fill up my Ram (or my Titan, when I had it) from empty in less than 5 minutes. People aren't going to accept 15 or more minutes for recharging time *unless* the stops are reduced significantly, i.e. you have to stop once for 30 minutes but can go 1,000 miles.



I think all of this is kind of a moot point. What I see coming down the pike is subscriptions to car services, where a driverless car picks you up whenever you want to go somewhere and drops you off, and you don't own a car at all but rather an "Amazon Car Prime" where you pay some amount of money and are guaranteed unlimited pick up/drop off service. Or you pay for a specific number of trips, or you pay by the mile, or something similar. Most people pay for a car to sit around and do nothing 23+ hours per day. Since most people consider a car an appliance, they won't care at all who owns the car, as long as it takes them where they want to go. They won't have to park it, maintain it, wash it, insure it, etc. It will be like public transportation, except you won't have to sit next to a bum or wino.


Really great idea amazed I never thought of that. China controls so much of the material needed for these batteries


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1000 mile range would be pretty damn impressive!

My thoughts on electric vehicles: Rather than super-fast charge time, more reasonable (in my opinion) is standardized, easily removed batteries with reasonable charge times (say an hour) that are swapped when you pull in to "get gas". Then you swap out batteries the way you swap out propane tanks for your gas grill.
Like these scooters in China (but on a larger scale).
https://electrek.co/2016/01/06/gogoro-scooter-battery-swap/

Interesting idea. You buy the car but the government provides the batteries and you would just swap out when you reach the station.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Exchanging batteries would be great except for the fact that an 85kWh battery is 1200 pounds. They're talking about putting 180kWh+ batteries in these trucks. The infrastructure required to accomplish swapping them out would be insane.

I could see driverless being the thing 20+ years from now, but for the time being the infrastructure isn't there either. Hell, my 2018 Nissan GPS doesn't have roads that were built 2+ years ago.
 

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Agreed. It would also require the automobile manufacturers to standardize on a battery rack that can be swapped out via some automated process. Car manufacturers can’t even agree to use amber turn signals so that probably won’t happen.


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No. The range is basically enough for a single day local hunting trip. Barely...

Towing anything is going to drastically reduce that range as well.

Charging takes a LOT longer than filling up a gas tank...

Electric may not emit pollutants, but mining the material for batteries is a pretty nasty operation compared to an oil well and guess where we are going to have to get all this electricity for these new wonder vehicles? Power plants that burn insane amounts of fossil fuels... because solar power cannon and will not keep up. Nor will wind power (which is actually not as clean and environmentally friendly as most think).

Electric cars may not polute themselves but there is quite a bit of pollution made to charge them and build them.
 

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Don't cloud this great idea with logic and thought, sir. :lol:
 

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Electric may not emit pollutants, but mining the material for batteries is a pretty nasty operation compared to an oil well and guess where we are going to have to get all this electricity for these new wonder vehicles? Power plants that burn insane amounts of fossil fuels... because solar power cannon and will not keep up. Nor will wind power (which is actually not as clean and environmentally friendly as most think).

Electric cars may not polute themselves but there is quite a bit of pollution made to charge them and build them.

You’re missing the bigger picture though.
When a petrol car is sold today, it’s up to the owner to make sure the car is correctly maintained and that the emissions systems are not tampered with. Best case scenario, the car continues to pollute as much as it did when built from the factory.

With EV, the pollution becomes centralized. Instead of many millions of polluting vehicles, we have only to manage a few energy plants and mining facilities.

Battery recycling will continue to improve newer and better batteries will be made available to the benefit of all electric vehicles.

Tesla has made their technology royalty free for any manufacturer to copy and reproduce. Now would be a good time for an agency to define a universal battery standard for all EV passenger cars to allow batteries to be easily swapped and upgraded.




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Electric may not emit pollutants, but mining the material for batteries is a pretty nasty operation compared to an oil well and guess where we are going to have to get all this electricity for these new wonder vehicles? Power plants that burn insane amounts of fossil fuels... because solar power cannon and will not keep up. Nor will wind power (which is actually not as clean and environmentally friendly as most think).

Electric cars may not polute themselves but there is quite a bit of pollution made to charge them and build them.

You’re missing the bigger picture though.
When a petrol car is sold today, it’s up to the owner to make sure the car is correctly maintained and that the emissions systems are not tampered with. Best case scenario, the car continues to pollute as much as it did when built from the factory.

With EV, the pollution becomes centralized. Instead of many millions of polluting vehicles, we have only to manage a few energy plants and mining facilities.

Battery recycling will continue to improve newer and better batteries will be made available to the benefit of all electric vehicles.

Tesla has made their technology royalty free for any manufacturer to copy and reproduce. Now would be a good time for an agency to define a universal battery standard for all EV passenger cars to allow batteries to be easily swapped and upgraded.




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I don’t think you know how the private utility companies work....

🙂

They’re anything but efficient. It increases the amount they can charge in most places when they’re inefficient as possible. And believe me... they’re already highly regulated.

You’re missing the point. It’s people who make the electricity. And they’re the exact same species as the ones who drive cars right now. There is no less of a margin for error.

And google “lithium mine”. We already have a bunch of these globally trying to supply the small amount of lithium we use now. Compared to oil it would literally destroy the planet to mine enough of it for current EV’s.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I didn't want to get into the whole pollution debate, as I was trying to focus on the performance of the trucks compared to ours. If you want to jump into different types of electricity there are pros and cons for each one, and we (as a species) are trying to figure out the best solution for the rock that we currently can't leave. Don't just google "lithium mine" and believe the pictures you see comparing a copper strip mine to a low profile oil sands mine and claiming it's lithium. My 2 cents on energy is nuclear. The last plant built in the US is freaking 45 years old. How well do you think a modernized plant would perform compared to that? Those are just fission plants though. Stable fusion could be possible in the next decade, leading to a world-wide change in how electricity is created.
 

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You’re missing the bigger picture though.
When a petrol car is sold today, it’s up to the owner to make sure the car is correctly maintained and that the emissions systems are not tampered with. Best case scenario, the car continues to pollute as much as it did when built from the factory.

With EV, the pollution becomes centralized. Instead of many millions of polluting vehicles, we have only to manage a few energy plants and mining facilities.

Battery recycling will continue to improve newer and better batteries will be made available to the benefit of all electric vehicles.

Tesla has made their technology royalty free for any manufacturer to copy and reproduce. Now would be a good time for an agency to define a universal battery standard for all EV passenger cars to allow batteries to be easily swapped and upgraded.




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If you think these companies are gonna be able to build electric cars and be environmentally friendly your kidding yourself the current yahoo in office is making sure coal kills us slowly. The footprint will out weight the idea. It is always about some rich people make by an easy billion. We are the throw away aspect. Just keep us reproducing so we can buy their stuff


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I didn't want to get into the whole pollution debate, as I was trying to focus on the performance of the trucks compared to ours. If you want to jump into different types of electricity there are pros and cons for each one, and we (as a species) are trying to figure out the best solution for the rock that we currently can't leave. Don't just google "lithium mine" and believe the pictures you see comparing a copper strip mine to a low profile oil sands mine and claiming it's lithium. My 2 cents on energy is nuclear. The last plant built in the US is freaking 45 years old. How well do you think a modernized plant would perform compared to that? Those are just fission plants though. Stable fusion could be possible in the next decade, leading to a world-wide change in how electricity is created.
It’s all natural resources. Lithium comes from many sources. Most of the mined stuff comes from other mines. Like copper strip mines. As do other minerals and recourses. They’re also talking about getting it from oilfield brine water.

Point is. It’s non recyclable as a battery once it’s burned out and it is a limited natural resource. It’s just an alternative we are going to suck dry. Just like oil and gas.

Nuclear is nasty stuff to deal with no matter what. And power plants are built as cheap as possible. Most plants in the country are old now and far past their expiration date.

The plant is that old, but the reactors are new. One from 1996 and another just 3 years old began operation in 2016. Not real promising though.

Fuel is a very important performance discussion. It’s the number one reason electric vehicles haven’t taken over like some blindly wish they would. They’re not economically or realistically feasible yet for mass use. 15 minute charge time doesn’t sound bad, but do you want to imagine lines at the pump (charge station)? And that’s with an inefficient fast charger that you can’t keep in your home.
 

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the current yahoo in office is making sure coal kills us slowly.

No doubt. But the orange ape won’t be there forever. Same goes for the criminal he appoints to govern the EPA.

The system isn’t perfect right now and probably never will be. My point was just that it would be demonstrably more efficient to manage pollutants at isolated locations; not once they are distributed across the continent.

I also agree with the points made about charging time. For the time being, gasoline has many more times the kWh potential than the best batteries and it is much faster to move from one container to another. But that will no doubt change in the future.

Most households with 2 vehicles could replace one of them with an EV today. One day we may be able to replace them all but much more infrastructure is needed (just as it did when the petrol vehicles came about).

Towing with an EV would be awesome. Just set the cruise and go. No more struggling engine or constantly shifting transmission (for 50 miles anyhow ).



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If you think these companies are gonna be able to build electric cars and be environmentally friendly your kidding yourself the current yahoo in office is making sure coal kills us slowly. The footprint will out weight the idea. It is always about some rich people make by an easy billion. We are the throw away aspect. Just keep us reproducing so we can buy their stuff


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It’s not about their money. It’s about your money too.

You complain about coal. But then the other alternative is going to raise your ulitlity bill, and your general cost of living by a significant margin.

They’ll just charge more to keep their profit margins the same. The real hit will be to your wallet.

They fight to keep coal, so you won’t fight to take away their profit margins if they do the right thing and switch to alternative fuel sources. It’s not them. It’s everyone.

You don’t want to pay for the additional cost of doing business just as much as they don’t. And if you made them do it, you're going to turn on them and put all of the cost of doing it on them. So they fight you tooth and nail. It’s a vicious cycle. Hence why it’s so hard to move forward.

This is why socialism ALWAYS fails violently. It’s a system that always tries to pin the cost on the minority that takes care of the majority.

It’s also a large part of why our cost of living keeps shooting up.
 

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Don’t get me wrong. I’d love to have an electric truck. But not as they’re going to be for a long while.

1. I want a half ton pickup.

2. I want to charge it at home relatively quickly. IE: 30-45 minutes from dead to full charge.

3. I want a 600-1000 mile battery for towing. Which will end up being 300 mile for towing.

4. I want it to be affordable. IE: $40k and under.

5. I want availability of charging stations that can charge it in just a few minutes. 15 minutes isn’t bad but 3-5 would be awesome.

Until they can accomplish all this they’re not going to hold any sort of large market place. I mean, you won’t even be able to take your boat out to the lake with one as you’ll have no way to get home when you’re done. You can’t take it camping, etc...

With a combustion motor you can just have extra gas cans around.. maybe some sort of portable generator can be invented to charge the thing up efficiently?
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Don’t get me wrong. I’d love to have an electric truck. But not as they’re going to be for a long while.

1. I want a half ton pickup.

2. I want to charge it at home relatively quickly. IE: 30-45 minutes from dead to full charge.

3. I want a 600-1000 mile battery for towing. Which will end up being 300 mile for towing.

4. I want it to be affordable. IE: $40k and under.

5. I want availability of charging stations that can charge it in just a few minutes. 15 minutes isn’t bad but 3-5 would be awesome.

Until they can accomplish all this they’re not going to hold any sort of large market place. I mean, you won’t even be able to take your boat out to the lake with one as you’ll have no way to get home when you’re done. You can’t take it camping, etc...

With a combustion motor you can just have extra gas cans around.. maybe some sort of portable generator can be invented to charge the thing up efficiently?
I agree with all of those except the affordability. Gas trucks now are bare minimum 35k unless you get a bare bones truck. I'd want something to at least match what I have in my current 2008 Titan with my personal upgrades. That includes a touch radio, backup camera, Apple/Android Auto, leather, heated seats, premium audio, 9k+ pounds towing, 4WD. You get a package like that in a current day truck you're looking at 52k+ MSRP.

Early adoption, aka the next 3 years or so, I'd expect prices to be in the 60-75k range since there's nothing out there. After that it's anyone's guess when the market tops out for trucks. It doesn't help that trucks are now the "go to" luxury vehicle for a lot of people so the prices are skyrocketing. Case in point: a SuperCrew 2019 F-150 with the short bed is $35k minimum. Even a Titan CrewCab 4WD is 39k minimum.
 

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I agree with all of those except the affordability. Gas trucks now are bare minimum 35k unless you get a bare bones truck. I'd want something to at least match what I have in my current 2008 Titan with my personal upgrades. That includes a touch radio, backup camera, Apple/Android Auto, leather, heated seats, premium audio, 9k+ pounds towing, 4WD. You get a package like that in a current day truck you're looking at 52k+ MSRP.

Early adoption, aka the next 3 years or so, I'd expect prices to be in the 60-75k range since there's nothing out there. After that it's anyone's guess when the market tops out for trucks. It doesn't help that trucks are now the "go to" luxury vehicle for a lot of people so the prices are skyrocketing. Case in point: a SuperCrew 2019 F-150 with the short bed is $35k minimum. Even a Titan CrewCab 4WD is 39k minimum.
I’m referring to street price. You can pick up a new truck like you just described your truck for $37-40k street price. We just bought my Pro4x with all that (minus leather heated seats, I hate them) for $37k new. Utility package, remote start, etc...

Bought another 18’ Titan SV 4x4 with heated cloth seats, dimming mirrors, utility package, running boards, etc... for $36k with a bed cover.

Bought an 18 Silverado z71 4x4 with identical features to my Titan for $39K.

To compete in the market for real, they will have to offer work economy trucks. That’s where the bulk of the business still is. But their current base price is listed at $45K. With little info on what that includes.

They’re building a luxury vehicle still. They need to gear their focus to a utilitarian customer more.
 
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